Somatic Healing And Using Your Body To Retrain Your Brain With Jennie Pool and Laura Smith

Jan:
Welcome to the Jam Broberg podcast. We are so excited today to welcome two special guests. One, I met over my backyard fence recently and had no idea that Laura Smith was a program director for a mental health kind of facility that she has created called Mend. So I wanna welcome Laura, who has been my neighbor for a few years, but that's how busy we get that we don't actually know who lives right behind us. And What she's created I think is extraordinary. And we'll talk about MEND a little bit more. Welcome, Laura, to the show.

Jennie and Laura:
Thank you for having me.

Jan:
really excited you're here. Now also sitting right next to Laura is Jenny Poole and Jenny has also worked in this kind of mental health and the healing of the body and all of the somatic systems that are the things that she has such a special program in how to help people be able to recover from trauma of dealing with it. And so Jenny, when she worked in the therapeutic industry for over two decades, she spent a lot of her time developing these therapy skills in wilderness therapy, residential treatment facilities, and in the private practice settings. So she's got a very creative approach and I'm so happy to have Jenny Poole also sitting right next to Laura Smith. Thank you for joining me.

Jennie and Laura:
Absolutely, we're so excited to be here.

Jan:
It really is wonderful. As I was reflecting on Laura's story, she's worked in the mental health industry for the last 20 years, but she became involved after losing her older sister to suicide in 2003. And she just immediately went to work educating herself and other people on the importance of mental health and the potential risks that are associated with ignoring it. She has sat on the board of directors for various nonprofit organizations and she really has helped educate and raise awareness around suicide prevention and other mental health issues for a long, long time now. So Laura, when you decided through the work that you have been doing that you knew there was a need for a place to go and you ended up calling that place MEND, which I love the name. because we think about mending something, and sometimes it can get torn a little bit and have to be mended again. And so I love the idea that we can mend it, and it's whole and complete, but then we may need some help because something, some other little tear may happen, or some other thing comes forward. Can you describe how you started mend?

Jennie and Laura:
Well, first, let me just make sure I'm clear that Jenny and I have we've been in this together from the get go. So she and I started this together. And I'm kind of

Jan:
Okay.

Jennie and Laura:
chuckling to myself because it was late nights that we'd sit here running like different names, you know, by each other. Like, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? And

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
it was actually Jenny that kind of through some inspiration came up with MEND and what it stands for. And I'd love for Jen to kind of share that. But we both as soon as she said it, I'm like that That's it. That sounds right. That's perfect. Yeah.

Jan:
Yeah, I'd love

Jennie and Laura:
It

Jan:
to

Jennie and Laura:
came

Jan:
hear.

Jennie and Laura:
from a place of being able to mend. When you're doing really deep therapeutic work, you're doing some really deep interior work. And when you go deep into the interior, you're mending the soul, right? And so as I just kind of mold on it, it just started to fit more and more. And then we just took mend and made an acronym out of it, you know, mindfully engaged, necessary, depth appealing. met no

Jan:
I love that. So say those words again. M is for mindful. E is for

Jennie and Laura:
Mm-hmm. Engaged.

Jan:
engaged. Okay.

Jennie and Laura:
N is for

Jan:
N.

Jennie and Laura:
necessary, that necessary therapeutic work we're doing. And then D

Jan:
Right.

Jennie and Laura:
is for the depth of healing.

Jan:
So the depth of healing, tell me a little bit about how that became what the D would stand for. The depth of healing, what does that mean to you and to the people that you work with?

Jennie and Laura:
Depth of healing to me, because I focus on so much trauma work, is it's almost like you're walking on sacred ground with people as they really have the courage to heal from what at times are very impactful times in their life. you have to drill deep, you have to go deep, and there's a lot of depth, and there's a lot of layers, and a lot of tears at times, and a lot of just

Jan:
Thank

Jennie and Laura:
being able

Jan:
you.

Jennie and Laura:
to hold a space for people. And so depth is such a, I think, vast word, and it really seemed to capture just how much we wanna be able to hold a space for the people we're doing work with.

Jan:
It's beautiful and I think when you realize that that's what people need, they need a space for someone to hold that space for them as they go through those, you know, emotions and also with the physical body, what has happened to your physical body, at least in my world with sexual trauma. And especially that happened in childhood or early teenage or teenage years of life. it's a very tender thing as an adult woman to then basically go, OK, I have all these outcomes in my life that don't seem to be serving me. How can I heal whatever is causing me pain or harm or I'm stuck right now in my adult life? Because I'm now a responsible adult. I know that it's up to me to heal what was harmed and what was taken. And so. for both of you to have been working on this for a number of years, did you have other iterations that you started with, and then you went, oh, but I think it's more over here, or it's interesting how, you know, 20 years if you've been working together, and MEND, I believe, is relatively a new center. Is that right, Laura?

Jennie and Laura:
Yes, yeah, we are, we've been open for about a year now going on our first year. Yeah. Um, and I mean, Jenny and I, we've known each other for the last 20 years and we've worked, sometimes our paths crossed and we worked at the same center or facility, but we've just remained really close over the years and really felt like, you know, about once a year we would reconnect and, and felt this pull like there's, there's something more we're supposed to do and we would kind check in. like, are you ready to do it now? Or maybe not yet. And then this last year, things just aligned and we felt like, okay, it's time to take everything that we've been doing for the last 20 years and put it into one place. I think the biggest thing for us and what we have tried to create at MEND is that we wanna be able to share space and meet people where they're at. So regardless of what phase or stage of their healing they come in, that we're able to compliment that. able to have different modalities to be able to support them wherever they're at and not, you know, have this one approach that's all sort of mentality. And so, yeah, things just kind of aligned this last year and we were able to start building it. And it's one of those things that Jenny's always said, if you build it, they will come. And it certainly has. That's definitely happened this

Jan:
Well,

Jennie and Laura:
last

Jan:
you said

Jennie and Laura:
year.

Jan:
you're basically full, like you're ready to build another one, you know? And

Jennie and Laura:
Yes.

Jan:
boy, if we could populate the whole, you know, United States with a whole plethora of mend, places where you can mend. I mean, there's such need. The fact that the model that you have going, where you meet people where they're at and that one size doesn't fit all, is really, truly the brilliance of what you're doing, because that is what I find. as different people are ready to talk through something, other people are still years away from that. But they

Jennie and Laura:
Mm-hmm.

Jan:
can do other things in the meantime.

Jennie and Laura:
Absolutely.

Jan:
And so I just think this is really kind of one of those almost like just flashes of inspiration where you came together and went, this is what we should do and this is what's gonna work and it is. So it's very exciting, right?

Jennie and Laura:
And trusting the timing. And I'll say this, the direction of mental health therapy, there's a wave that's coming in where somatic, getting into the body, not just the mental body and the emotional body, but really helping people get in tune with their physical bodies. One, connecting them back to their emotional body. When our sense of safety in the world is disrupted, not just, it doesn't just disrupt our nervous system, when our sense of safety is compromised, we sometimes can kind of leave our body to be safer. association and so getting them

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
connected to somebody and recovering safety. It can be safe to be in my body. It can be safe to be in this world even when bad things are still happening. It's really about reclaiming safety when there's those kind of disruptions, not just in the sense of safety but the disruption in your nervous system. And while a narrative, right, therapy and talk therapy can be beneficial, there's a point where the narrative, only staying in the narrative and the talking can sometimes healing. So there's power in

Jan:
Right,

Jennie and Laura:
telling

Jan:
you're recycling

Jennie and Laura:
the story.

Jan:
your pain, basically. It's just recycling instead of moving out.

Jennie and Laura:
There's power in telling the story, I think. We have to have some visibility and feel heard. As human beings, we need to feel heard, validated, seen, and understood. That's a huge part of how we form attachment bonds and also how we create healing is, do you hear me? Do you see me? Do you get me? You've

Jan:
right.

Jennie and Laura:
also got to move the wounds from the physical body that are also attached to that emotional and mental body, too. I think sometimes, too, people that experience trauma, clients that we're working with, it's been so long since they knew what that felt like, to be fully present in their bodies. But there does come a point where it's like something's just off and maybe you can't find the words for it. And I think that's where it definitely was a divine thought or intuition where Jenny's like, we're missing this huge piece of the somatic side of things. pains or aches or ailments in the body and you realize that that's stored energy from something that's possibly been holding them back for years. And maybe that's where, that's their starting point in their journey, right? Maybe it's not the sharing their story out loud sort of thing. Maybe that's their starting place where that's where the ball gets going to kind of open up these other opportunities for them to heal.

Jan:
Hmm. Oh, I love that. I was just talking to a friend and just happens to be male and so hard to talk about you know that what I Mean, I think it's hard for especially for men although they say that even women it takes an average of seven years before at least seven years before a girl or a woman will Begin to disclose what happened to them They've held it, you know at least that long and that for the average man. It's about 21 years that they'll hold if they ever do disclose anything. And so it would be really remarkable for someone to start on the somatic like what you're talking about and be able to do that. And then maybe it would move them into opening up and talking about it. Or maybe they don't ever have to maybe there's another way because again, one size does not fit all. And that's why each individual I think is so different. Right.

Jennie and Laura:
I can tell you that sometimes less is more in regards to somebody that isn't verbose or feeling like I could never tell that story. I can tell you in doing the somatic work I've done that sometimes just connecting to where there's a... The physical body is in dis-ease. It's not doing well. And then reclaiming safety. Sometimes they're working through it themselves. There's not much that has to be said. And then there's a relief. We're moving that wound out of the body. and they're feeling it. And then the next day, the next time I meet with them, they're going, something's shifting, something's changing, and I feel safe. Like I don't have to just disclose every single thing. I don't have to feel so rawly vulnerable. And so it's a beautiful way to start creating movement in a body to heal without having to have someone feel so exposed. Yeah.

Jan:
Mm. That's really, that's really, that's really an incredible like pathway for people that are not, like you said, they're just not either wanting to be verbal or it's just too hard to talk about things at least at the time that they are at. And I also believe that at some point, you know, I've told my story many, many times, but I've done a ton of healing. So I'm not re-triggered by my own story. I share it to give other people hope. or to educate someone about grooming, you know, to prevent. So there's reasons why I share my story, but it's in a different place than it used to be when I was holding it and when it was my truth and when it was influencing me every day and I couldn't let it go, I couldn't get past it. I felt like it was in control instead of me. And so I think having a different way to approach. you know, the beginnings of healing and how far you can go with that. It could be just what the doctor ordered, so to speak, you know. And I really love that both of you seem to have come to this work because of your past experiences. And so, Laura, I know you were pretty open in sharing about what happened with your older sister. Is there anything else that might maybe be of service for people to know how? that affected you and your family and how that led you to this path.

Jennie and Laura:
Sure, yeah. You know, with my sister, so she ended up passing away at the age of 23, but she had some early childhood trauma that we had no idea had happened. With our aunt, my sister had stayed out of town at their place, and it happened to be a neighbor in the same little town that my sister was visiting and had some trauma happen there. And and some abuse and we went, I mean she was 12 when it happened and so we went, our whole childhood just not understanding why my sister could not just do life. Like everything, it was just all of a sudden life got chaotic, you know. and she had belts with substance abuse and you know just always seemed to be kind of hitting rock bottom over and over and over again. You know and then once she became an adult she decided that she wanted to go to a program so went to a program here in Utah and felt like that she was doing pretty well for a bit. And then you know the trauma kind of reared its head again and ultimately you know she ended up taking her life at the age of 23. But I think after, you know, after that happened and I started to get involved with just what our local community had available and starting to kind of understand how we get to this place. It started to help make sense of her childhood and everything. I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense why she was like this or why it felt like this. But the biggest thing when I look back on the times that my sister was had done well was how close we were as a family and the support that she had around her. And sorry, I still get emotional talking about it, but I just remember almost the moment I found out that she had passed that I didn't know, I didn't know what needed to be done. I didn't know how necessarily how to help, but I knew that if I could even just pass out along, if I could share space, if I could hold safe space for people that were going through hard times and just be a, you know, non-judgmental safe place you know, refuge in that I'd start

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
there, you know, and so for me I think sometimes especially with suicide or even sexual abuse people feel like well I'm not equipped to support somebody through that like I don't know how to help somebody with that or it's uncomfortable we don't know how to talk about it. And for me, I've always thought it's better to do something than nothing. And so even if it's

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
just a kind face, if it's just a, Hey, how are you doing? Or, Oh, it's good to see you. Or just stopping in and checking in on people or something just like that small human connection can make such a big difference. And so I think if there was one thing that, you know, I would pass along is just not to discredit the power in connection and we healing should not be done alone, right? Um, It

Jan:
Right.

Jennie and Laura:
absolutely takes an entire community and village to be able to heal and not just heal, but to do life. And so for

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
me, I think just that would be my little bit of wisdom, what I kind of gained from it immediately.

Jan:
Yeah, that's beautiful and you hit right to my heart of what I've always wanted to do is to build a community because so often people who are experiencing these kinds of things and most of them are from, you know, before often before the drugs and the alcohol and the cutting and the anorexia and then what all the other things and then not being able to hold a job and can't do life. Something

Jennie and Laura:
Mm-hmm.

Jan:
happened, right? Which is why I love that other book that Oprah Winfrey and is it? Scott Perry, Steve Perry, somebody Perry, that interview about it's not what's wrong with you, it's what happened to you. And if we could get to that sooner and heal those wounds faster, you know, then maybe, you know, your sister would still be here. And you can't, I mean, I don't mean to say that in any kind of a way, like any blame or shame for anybody, because you were a close family, which is why she was able to go as far as she did. Because I believe that community is like the missing piece. And it feels to me like we're getting farther and farther away from real relationships. They're done on some kind of, I don't know, where anybody can say anything and have no responsibility for it. So the online community that we started is like, you can't do anything but see each other, hear each other, believe, never judge, never blame. That is part of the. criteria to join our community and

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
that we're there to support through the life, whatever experiences people still need in their healing, you know?

Jennie and Laura:
Creating safety, you're creating safety in a community. And just to give your listeners and your community a visual, it helps you give empathy for people that are struggling with any type of abuse. If I dropped a pinball inside your body and it started pinging around, and then let's drop another one, let's say another event happened, let's drop another one, and someone's walking around with that kind of dis-ease, right? It's just like wreaking havoc inside the body and yet still trying to function in life. If we really could see it that way, How are you, way to go for even getting up today, right? We would just have a lot more empathy for this

Jan:
Right.

Jennie and Laura:
internal battle and struggle to just have a sense of safety in the world now that it's been so deeply compromised. And that's why reclaiming safety, and I use that language a lot, is so incredibly important.

Jan:
right to have a safe space.

Jennie and Laura:
Jan, something you said about if we could get to them sooner. Jan and I both, we've worked with a variety of ages. When I first started out in this, I was working with adults, young adults to 60-year-olds that had some form of trauma. Absolutely, there might have been that first trauma that happened in early childhood, but things kind of go unnoticed or undetected or... and it's like

Jan:
Or somebody

Jennie and Laura:
another

Jan:
says,

Jennie and Laura:
yeah

Jan:
oh, children are resilient. Let's just move on, right? Because they don't want to have to deal with anymore. Oh, they look happy. They're doing fine. We just move on.

Jennie and Laura:
But there's something

Jan:
Go ahead,

Jennie and Laura:
to be

Jan:
sorry.

Jennie and Laura:
said. No, no, it's right in line with this. Just towards the end of the program I was with right before we started MEND, I started working with adolescent teens, you know, girls. And... It was so rewarding to be able to start to intervene at a younger age. And you're realizing, man, if I could give people the tools right now, after the first or the second, you know, traumatic event has happened to them, the likelihood of them being able to, you know, heal from it and they have such a, you know, better understanding how not to find themselves in the same situations. It's just, there is absolutely something to be said to being able to, to give people the support when it's happening. eight years after the fact. Not that healing can't be done at any age, but you're absolutely

Jan:
Sure.

Jennie and Laura:
right. Being able to have more support earlier on is definitely, you know, a bonus. Well you got to remember

Jan:
And we,

Jennie and Laura:
that...

Jan:
oh

Jennie and Laura:
Oh

Jan:
yeah,

Jennie and Laura:
go

Jan:
go

Jennie and Laura:
ahead.

Jan:
ahead.

Jennie and Laura:
Oh I was gonna

Jan:
No,

Jennie and Laura:
say you got

Jan:
I

Jennie and Laura:
to

Jan:
want,

Jennie and Laura:
remember that...

Jan:
don't forget what you were saying.

Jennie and Laura:
Like just with the neurochemistry and what's happening in the body and you take that pinball example, let's say someone's got 20 of those spinning around their body. When you start being able to discharge that survival energy, like how can a, it's hard for a body to heal with that much going on inside of it. So as you discharge that survival energy and reclaim safety, then you can make room for healing, right? It's like if there were a bunch of boxes in a room and you have no room for any more, well, what do you do? You move the boxes out so that you can start making space. Right, that's how you have to, that's a lot of what you do in the psyche see where it's encumbered and you start helping it to unencumber, discharge some of that survival energy and help people find their equilibrium again. Right? They're...

Jan:
Yeah, that's really, that's such a good example. Both of those, like if you're a walking pinball machine with you got 20 pinballs going on, how do you cope? How do you function? It really is like, because it's happening in the body, which means it's happening in the mind, which means it's happening in your central nervous system, in your brain and all the different places and all the muscular pieces of your body that have been, like I often will say, it's like having a clenched fist. from the time I was 12 until I finally started to release, to make space, to open up that fist. Well, what happens if you clench your fist for even five minutes really hard? What happens when you open it up? Well, blood starts to rush back. It hurts.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
There's certain pain that happens. But now after that subsides, I've got all these muscles and all these fine... tuning, you know, I can feel my skin, I can pick up little tiny pieces of rice. There's stuff I can do that I can't do with my clenched fist. So I love the idea of the boxes. If your room is full of boxes, you got to move some out so you can create space for healing.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah,

Jan:
And so

Jennie and Laura:
and don't move

Jan:
both

Jennie and Laura:
those

Jan:
of

Jennie and Laura:
boxes

Jan:
those.

Jennie and Laura:
out if they don't feel safe. Yeah. Right? That's why it's like it's safe to move some of these boxes out. And you'll have to battle the psyche going, is it though? Is it safe to move these boxes out? But you notice that once someone feels that way, they'll move. They'll start unpacking. They'll start being able to say, yeah, let's slough some of this off.

Jan:
Yeah, that's really a great way to describe, you know, kind of what you're doing when you, like when you worked on me, Jenny, and the various, you know, I don't know if you call them pressure points or how, I mean, everything from my neck down to my feet. And just that was such an incredible experience. And I have, I have felt like something has shifted. I can't tell you exactly what I just feel lighter. I feel more. just a general sense of safety. My shoulders aren't up under my ears all the time where I have to go, oh, Jan, put your shoulders down. They're just more down. They're just more relaxed. I think that, I don't know where your inspiration to go into this field came from. Was it from anything specific, Jenny? I don't

Jennie and Laura:
You

Jan:
remember

Jennie and Laura:
know what?

Jan:
that you shared.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah, as I got into doing, I always, I, as soon as I took my first psychology class, I knew that like, this is an area I was going to go into. And so along with the psychology, I also really love studying the body. I knew I didn't want to go into the medical field because I can't even watch the surgery channel. I'm like, okay, I

Jan:
All right,

Jennie and Laura:
got

Jan:
I'm

Jennie and Laura:
to

Jan:
gonna

Jennie and Laura:
watch

Jan:
pass

Jennie and Laura:
knee

Jan:
out.

Jennie and Laura:
scopes. But I knew there was something to, if you're going to help trauma heal, I just, I think deep inside me, maybe just you're gonna have to get into the physical body. That you're gonna have to, so when somatic pioneers like Bessel van der Kolk with the Body Keep Score, Peter Levine with Waking the Tiger, when they started to come onto the scene, I was like, this is what mental health and trauma work needs, is someone helping unwind the body as well as that talking and that mental and that emotional body. And so I was so

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
drawn to it and then started to really look at what it meant to be able to use my hands and help create healing too. And even sometimes, sometimes I don't have to put my hands on someone, it's tapping, it's helping someone do some tapping, it's helping someone get in tune and just like, like notice an area and we can do some unwinding there. The body is a very intuitive vessel and it wants to find its equilibrium. When it's been hurt, it's one of the reasons we heal from a wound so well if it's been taken care of is because it wants to heal. It wants, it really does want to live in its place of homeostasis, which is its happy place. example of even this is a decade ago I was working on someone and I could tell they had a trauma trigger I touched their foot we were doing some grounding and they pulled their foot away and they're like oh sorry and I said you're good you're okay I said but that wasn't just hey my foot got to it like that was ticklish or that surprised me I said that was a trauma response and so tell me tell me what happened to your foot and they thought about thought about and finally that they it was like a light bulb went off and they said I stung by a wasp on my foot. And then they walked me through this whole experience of getting stung by this wasp and it was so scary. And their body remembered, this is the power of the body keeping score, the body remembered that instance so when it got touched just very lightly, it recoiled. So then we worked through, unwind, we worked through. And now you can touch that foot and there's no recoil, right? Because you're able to discharge what was recorded essentially in the very tissues. but also emotional body. We get stung by a bee and that hurts. So this is just a really good example to help bring into, if a bee sting, the body can remember that. The sexual trauma, physical trauma, traumas are so important to heal from because they are wreaking havoc. And when you look at what's stored and remembered in a body, it's so, so important to help people say, you can safely reclaim safety in the world. Beasting disrupts a body, can disrupt a body that much. Can you imagine, right, what some of these more horrific traumas can do to a body? But then you're such a great testament to, you can put a period on your past when you heal it, even through horrific trauma. And that's a beautiful thing. But somebody has really got to go, okay, I can do this safely. And so then you always have to measure window of tolerance. You cannot take someone faster than they can go to unwind and heal.

Jan:
Yeah, yeah, there was somebody that did an event on the community with our community members on Thriveivers and they said you can get healing burnout

Jennie and Laura:
Thanks.

Jan:
and I thought that was really interesting. I'd never heard that before but those were the actual words that she used that sometimes you're so anxious to heal and you're trying all these things that you can get, you know, healing burnout and I thought that's really interesting. It took me a long time because I would try something and I didn't really know it's Today, it feels like there's been so much, you know, clinical and scientific research on so many ways to maybe heal in different, you know, time periods of your life because I'm sort of the opinion, and you guys can correct me if this is wrong, but it feels like what I was trying to heal from in my 20s was different from what I needed after I had a child. and noticed other things that came up. It was like the stages of life that I was going through. And when I was getting married and divorced the first time, that was different than the third time, you know? It was like, I knew I was still searching for things that really hadn't even been identified, because most of my, you know, kind of awakening and going, there's something here that I've gotta either see somebody and talk to them, I gotta read another self-help book, I gotta go have a massage. I mean, you know, there were just things that would come up and I would think, maybe this will help, maybe calm me down or make me feel a little more secure and safe, which is a big, big thing. I mean, into my early 30s, I was still looking behind the seat of my car, under my car. I'd sometimes walk all the way around my car. And I had never been like somebody out of the blue in a parking lot, didn't. But I had been, you know, abused in a motorhome, in a vehicle. you know over and over again and there was something about being in a vehicle of any kind that just even though i knew it wasn't real i couldn't help myself so i just

Jennie and Laura:
It's

Jan:
remember throughout my thirties

Jennie and Laura:
not

Jan:
it

Jennie and Laura:
your

Jan:
was

Jennie and Laura:
logical

Jan:
that

Jennie and Laura:
body reacting, it's your emotional body reacting, and then it's sense of safety, right? Now not just this one specific thing is unsafe, it can be all things like that are unsafe. You can do a lot of association.

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
And that's what the nervous system is built to do, by the way. It's not just, hey, there's a bear today. Well, we saw a bear yesterday, so now there may be 20 bears. We've got to make sure now that we watch out for bears, because there could be bears in this area. Since we saw one, we may see many. to comb, right, for dangers. It's built, but

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
then that hyperactive and then that hyperactivity and that nervous system is exhausting because it's so hypervigilant that the nervous system is essentially sitting here burning hot, hot and going danger, where is it, where is it, where is it? And so helping people just even start to calm that down. They're like reclaiming even just some baseline energy. You think it's someone burning a fire at a level one, it's a simmer. That's not energy intensive, but if someone's burning a fire inside... of themselves, seven, eight, nine, level ten, they, they're, you know, it, the fact that they're getting up and being able to do the basics is a really big deal. Yeah.

Jan:
Yeah, I would imagine that when somebody said recently on another podcast that I was doing, they were like, you know, it's almost that people think if you've kind of faced it, you know what it is, then that's going to turn everything down. But in a lot of ways, what you're facing is something from the past that was so scary then and now facing it in the present should be a different experience of letting go and yet a lot of times that doesn't happen and I'm like I wonder why do you have any like when you have people that come in and let's say that maybe they had a sexual assault and now they're dealing with addiction or something so when they come in to mend and they want you know they want that healing they're anxious to you know move forward but it's like this other thing now has a hold of them and it's like those mini pinballs that are going through the body. So now I had one pinball, but now I've layered it with another one that's wreaking havoc on my body. So which one do you start with? I'm just curious, do you have a way of deciding

Jennie and Laura:
It's a...

Jan:
let's deal with this one or what?

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah, I think it's well, it's an attunement. Yeah. So there's an attunement that happens. And you can overdo, like you said, somatic work. There are times where people keep going, keep going. Or even when I do brain spotting, they're like, I'm going to brain spot every week. I said, you're not. Like, we're going to only go to the degree that we keep that window of tolerance open. But if you're going to open somebody up in their past that's been traumatic, first of all, the therapeutic relationship and the connection, there has to be a safe connection established. Like, if I'm going to walk down this road with you, you need to feel safe with who you're that safety connection, it's an attachment. Attachments were beings wired for connection. We need to know that when we connect with somebody, especially with our most scariest sacred vulnerabilities, that we're safe with them. So that therapeutic connection needs to be established. I'll never just jump into doing trauma work with somebody until I feel like we've connected and created that therapeutic safe relationship. And then it's the attunement to where are your thresholds. And what are your co- coping mechanisms, because if we start viewing your past, we need to know that you can anchor in the present with some good, solid coping mechanisms. Sometimes, before I can even then go into their trauma, we've got to practice and teach coping mechanisms, so that sometimes when we view that stuff, there's a way to anchor into the present and going, I wasn't safe then, but I'm safe today. I'm with a safe person. That's why also environment, I'll play by narrow beats. My office is very soothing. There's weighted blankets. There's just things to go, I'm safe, I'm okay. So even though I'm looking at my past, I'm grounded here in the present and I'm having someone very safe hold a space for me while I'm in the present. And then we can do some really good trauma work. But even then eventually the window of tolerance closes. Like I can tell it's like, okay, we're done for today. And we're not going to revisit this until we get that window of tolerance back open. And that could be weeks from now. And in between that time, we do other things, right? We keep doing coping mechanisms and grounding in the present. nervous system come down because you really do have to reclaim that safety in the nervous system. It's so used to running hot that it's like, hey, we don't always have to run out of 10 anymore. Let's try and get you down to an eight. Let's try and get you down to a six now. And then teaching people

Jan:
Yeah,

Jennie and Laura:
to go,

Jan:
it's like you're going to

Jennie and Laura:
oh, this

Jan:
burn

Jennie and Laura:
is what

Jan:
your

Jennie and Laura:
it

Jan:
engine

Jennie and Laura:
feels

Jan:
out.

Jennie and Laura:
like. Yes. And giving

Jan:
So they

Jennie and Laura:
them.

Jan:
go, ooh, this is what a six feels like, and they like that. Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
Yes, like, oh, I can actually operate here. And then that's their new baseline. And then we can get them from a six to a two. It doesn't mean they won't spike sometimes back up to an eight, but then they start to learn how to get themselves back down and not live in that fight or flight freeze on state.

Jan:
So is it a matter of like, yeah, sometimes you're going to spike, but those coping mechanisms, those are things that you're also talking about or teaching as you go along? And could you like share a couple of those that seem to be really good, either one of you, like that you're like, this is one that people should work towards or use when they are starting to, you know, when the engine's starting to run so hot that they might burn out or whatever. How do you do that? what's a coping

Jennie and Laura:
Laura,

Jan:
mechanism

Jennie and Laura:
you share

Jan:
that you

Jennie and Laura:
something.

Jan:
could use.

Jennie and Laura:
I think Laura does a great with skill development and coping. So I can share some when people are with me, because I use a lot of them. But I think it'd be great, too, to hear some when they're not with a therapist. I will say, and this

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
looks down so like, oh, that can't possibly help. But something that I think gets so overlooked is just mindfulness, slowing down and taking a deep breath. I mean, when we're in that fight or flight or we get triggered, we're at 100. And just taking that time to like take a deep breath and slow it down, you know, some people have like a very specific mindfulness practice, but for me even mindfulness is on the drive home from work. I'm just not gonna listen. I'm not gonna listen to the radio or music at all. I'm just gonna sit with myself. It really helps me kind of understand like, okay, where's my baseline at? Am I here or am I, you know, kind of regulated? I'm here. So I do think intentional, like deep breath, just kind of taking a step back out of what wherever you're at, you know, if the environment's chaotic, even just taking it, you know, go in the other room, go outside, just taking the time to really kind of try and reconnect. To me that's one that's often overlooked. I mean I've got four teenagers and when they're having some of their struggles and I'm like, hey just slow down a minute, like we can get to the, we can check in, we can talk about whatever's going on, but first let's like... Like really intentionally take a few deep breaths and they're looking at me like, mom's crazy, she doesn't know what she's talking about. But then sure enough, you know, even if I can get them to do it for two or three minutes, it's like, Oh, this doesn't seem so like here. This seems more manageable now. Um, So that's like my favorite go-to. I don't know if you want to kind of talk about more like the tapping or... Breathing is such

Jan:
I

Jennie and Laura:
a huge...

Jan:
love that.

Jennie and Laura:
Breathing is a hack into the nervous system and it's free. And using breathing is a way, what I call, I've been using this term lately to ring out the sponge. If you can, as you breathe in, really do a... It's like you're ringing out the sponge, you're ringing out that energy, you're pushing it out and you're really bringing cognizant thought to, pushing this stress out of my body and I'm gonna and then you're also as you're doing deep breathing Ironically, you're bringing more oxygen to the brain So then you can get in some more clear thinking as you get Kind of swim through your emotional body and get things to calm down So breathing is something that I tell all my clients do whether they're with me or not and we do a lot of somatic breath work when they're with me Tapping is a huge one and there are like very specific ways that you can do tapping protocols and stuff But one of the ways is some like I'm not gonna remember all that this and that one best ways is if something's bugging on your body tap it like my shoulder is hurting like my head feels really overwhelmed like I

Jan:
Mm.

Jennie and Laura:
feel like I'm about to cry like you can just tap intuitively wherever you feel like your body needs some support your heart center is a very easy place to go to because we're really housing a lot of like our emotional body right in our heart center so a lot of people just say if you're starting to feel overwhelmed and you're starting to feel whether it's anxiety whether you're starting to get flooded it start taking some of those deep breathing and tap the tapping actually sends a signal to the like your fight or flight, and it creates like boom, boom. It creates a signal to even through stress, like get back to a calmer place. So even while

Jan:
Hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
you're going through a stressor, you can be tapping and going, I can tell I'm really overwhelmed about this. You can tell whatever narrative or story you need to, and I can reclaim my sense of safety in the world. Like I can get through the stressor. I can acknowledge that this is what I'm feeling, and that tapping actually helps the amygdala go, oh, we can calm. So that's I use a lot of tapping in the stuff that I do all have whether people are on the sound table Whether they're sitting here even when I'm brain-spotting I'll have people start to really get into the energy of their trauma and I'll be like take a deep breath while I'm sitting there and I'll be like start tapping your chest and they're like And then and then and then keep tapping keep tapping Where else do you feel intuitively need to go my eyes starting to hurt or my head, you know my head and like hey Go there and so in the moment we're doing that somatic breathing. We're doing the tapping. We're letting the body charge. So and those are all things that there's so many when I dug into the tapping world there's so many just videos on YouTube that if people really resonate with that like I might start you know Google or go to YouTube and tapping support you know tapping through anxiety tapping through feeling hunger pains or hunger cravings tapping through feeling like I want to use like in sobriety right and trying to maintain your sobriety

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
because again the signal It's dysregulating your nervous system. So you want to combat that with a counter tool. Something's happening to me, so I'm going to counter that. One of the things that I want people to really truly remember and believe is just like the mechanism of anxiety can happen, well the counter mechanism of that can happen. If one can exist, then the counter of it can exist as well. People don't remember that. If you're

Jan:
Hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
anxious, you can find the counters to reduce anxiety. for than dismantling it. Right? So you got to remember that to

Jan:
Well,

Jennie and Laura:
whatever

Jan:
that's really good.

Jennie and Laura:
I can create a counter to it.

Jan:
that there's something counter to this way that I'm feeling, whether it's wanting to use or it's wanting to explode from anxiety or that you just are feeling anxiety, not that you want to, but that you can have a counter to that. That makes a lot of sense and that also can make you feel like I'm not stuck here. There's hope that I can also find that other counter side to it.

Jennie and Laura:
and not railroaded by your emotions. Like they sometimes can snow people

Jan:
Right.

Jennie and Laura:
or railroad them and then it just feels like you're on this wave of tumultuous storminess and you can go, hold on a sec, I can get in control of this and I can create a counter to what I'm feeling right now. If the mechanism of feeling this can exist, the counter can exist as well. And it becomes such a hopeful workable space.

Jan:
Hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
Jen, I was just going to say that when we're talking about coping skills, we shared a couple of examples, but I actually worked for some years in a DBT program where we taught very specific black and white skills. I loved the idea of being able to give people tangible skills, but at the same time, what I hope your listeners and anyone out there hears is that what works for me may not work for Jenny. something which we've talked a few times about what you just kind of intuitively figured out was helping you cope with whatever stage of life and whatever was coming up and often we'll hear like well I don't know if I'm doing this right or maybe I haven't gone to a therapist and so maybe you know maybe I'm doing this wrong or just some of those judgments and for me it's like get in get in touch with like if that worked for you then who am I to say that that's not that doesn't work. Some of the work that I've done with clients over the years is built, I call it their toolbox. And so whether that's like a smell, if someone's really dysregulated and you know they need something to kind of help kind of ground them, this works really well for me is smell. So I have very specific smells, essential oils that I have in my toolbox or my first aid kit that I can immediately smell it and I'm like, oh it's like this calming, I can take

Jan:
Mm.

Jennie and Laura:
And so while we might be able to share a few helpful coping skills, I think the biggest help is when you're able to recognize the moments that you do find some of that relief and go, okay, how can I replicate this? How can I remember

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
that the next time this happens, that walk was really helpful or that deep breath, that mindfulness was really helpful or maybe taking a hot bath and being able to kind of compile your own toolbox of like, this is my go-to.

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
for when things start to feel overwhelming. I'll say a piece.

Jan:
I remember someone. Oh, go ahead.

Jennie and Laura:
Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, I'll say

Jan:
No.

Jennie and Laura:
a piece to like even things like essential oils, walking, breathing, you notice that they're connected typically to our senses, what we see, what we feel, what we can kinesthetically touch. So when we use our senses to create coping mechanisms, they can create a layering in the brain that helps create anchors. Like I look at like the way that our brain works, if we do one thing one time, if we do it 10 times, if we do it 20 times. So now every time, because Laura has done it enough, the first time she took that oil or like smelled that oil, it brought some relief. the more times she did it, she actually started to program her body and mind to go, when I grab, even probably when I grab this oil, my body's now in the mechanism of starting to unwind because I'm grabbing the thing. And so even before smelling, she's, yeah, it's remembering. So then as soon as she cracks that, right, and the oil, the body goes, this is our safe calming thing. So then you

Jan:
Hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
create almost like a ritual and an anchor. And so I call them psychic anchors, the more psychic anchors that the more that you're going to maintain and reclaim safety in the body.

Jan:
I think that's so cool. I know I wish that I had kept up with my doTERRA oils. Like I was like on the ground level and then I couldn't sell anything. So but I use them still.

Jennie and Laura:
I would use

Jan:
I'm like

Jennie and Laura:
them.

Jan:
dang it. I probably would have been a multi-millionaire by now. You know, but I'm so bad at all that. But I love them. And I remembered somebody had told me back then when they were just starting and I was just experiencing these oils for the first time and they were like... hey, if you feel kind of down or blue or whatever, you know, a little bit of depression, just open up that orange one, the one that's oranges, because orange, the smell of orange just lifts your spirits. And I was like, really? And so I tried it once when I was kind of feeling that way. I was like, oh, it actually does do that. And so I will do that. Sometimes I'll just open the drawer in the fridge if I have a bunch of oranges in there, and I'll just take an orange, you know, if I can't, if I'm not

Jennie and Laura:
Yep.

Jan:
around my oils, which are upstairs in my bedroom, and I'll just like, you know. peel an orange and then just take the peeling and rub it between my hands and just smell my hands. And I'm like, oh, and not only am I smelling it, I'm also breathing. I'm breathing that in. I'm taking a moment. So

Jennie and Laura:
Yep.

Jan:
it's like you're combining two or three things

Jennie and Laura:
Yes.

Jan:
that actually do give you that little window of relief that then you can calm down and be like, okay, the world is not ending. I

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
can, you know. it's going to be okay, I'm not under some current threat, even though I got overwhelmed, or I got a little bit worried about something. And so I think that's just having those tools in the toolbox like that you create. I like that idea where you go, what has worked for me in the past, and where do I still need some help? That's when you maybe see, you know, you seek out somebody like Jenny that can actually, you know, do some of those things with you, or you go to the therapist over here and you talk something out and then I love the idea that all of that, like by the 10th or the 20th time you smelled the oil, oh, now there's a new pathway in the brain.

Jennie and Laura:
Yep.

Jan:
Now you've built something that's going to help you, you know.

Jennie and Laura:
It's soothing. It's going to be soothing and it's going to be safety. It's and so if you think about if you build 10 of those, think about if you built, you know, you're when you're in distress, you can then really have a really good scaffolding to rely on

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
to get you out of distress, right? Or out of crisis or out of feeling overwhelmed or flooded because you have well practiced pillars in there, right? Anchors that are going, hey, this is how we this is how we kind of get back to being calm or reclaim our safety. You know, some of my go to's.

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
I a lot of people don't know about. narrow beats you can you can literally just type them in YouTube and a bunch of them they they're frequencies that help kind of calm down that nervous system and calm down what are kind of reactive or overactive brains because of the way the specific tones are laid and create some equilibrium in that brain by using frequency and I'll use them even while I'm

Jan:
So

Jennie and Laura:
driving

Jan:
can you spell that word so that we can look it up?

Jennie and Laura:
Belly.

Jan:
And it's sound based.

Jennie and Laura:
Let me make sure but B I N A U. I'm just gonna make sure I do it right. Do it justice. B I N A U R A L. So by narrow beats. And you can

Jan:
Okay.

Jennie and Laura:
pull up. The thing I love about YouTube is if you pull up one and like it, they're like, Oh, if you liked this one, then you'll like these other 10. And I have a I have a good top five go to I have some that I go to sleep with. I have some that I'll drive with. I have absolutely a top three I use while I'm doing trauma work with clients. So they're very,

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
very calming and they create a lot of safety in your environment.

Jan:
So I've heard that there is now something that's taking hold on various people that they've talked about sound therapy. Is that kind of the same idea? Is that what they're

Jennie and Laura:
Mm-hmm.

Jan:
talking about? Is that the same thing?

Jennie and Laura:
Yep, it's all about frequencies. People are doing those sound bowls, the crystal bowls, the Tibetan

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
metal bowls. It can be the chimes.

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
Sound healing is, I think, huge. Binaural beats have those specific frequencies that each of those bowls resonate at. We have the sound table here that will pull very specific frequencies up, and then you are laying on the sound table. You can feel the vibrations. It's like a sound, it's like a vibroacoustic sound massage in your cells. Like, it really does

Jan:
Mmm.

Jennie and Laura:
a good job with decompressing the nervous system to 30 minutes. Everyone I've put on the sound table is like, can I get one of these at home? They should be in all the schools. It just calms down that nervous system because it's not just now going through your auditory system, it's now going through the very tissues of your body. There is something to sound healing and a lot of people are getting into it because it's helping their bodies get to a more calm state. Without having to overuse the logical side the sound

Jan:
Right.

Jennie and Laura:
bed for that reason, anybody can lay on it and you're going to see some improvement you know in whatever space you walked in with.

Jan:
So does that also, when you see improvement, I mean, of course, we're talking about, you know, emotional and, you know, trauma, which causes all kinds of things, body and, and soul, you know. Does that work? Have you noticed that it works with like physical conditions? Because this friend of mine, the man that I was talking about earlier, he's, he said, I think that some of my fibromyalgia that they can't really diagnose what's going on, they just sort of go. sorry, this is what you have, we don't really know what to do about it, is probably, again, he's like, I think it's some of the trauma that I experienced and somehow it's being stored. I wonder if it would help these physical conditions if I were to do some somatic, you know, work and healing.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah, hands down, yes. I worked on someone's stomach the

Jan:
I will

Jennie and Laura:
other

Jan:
send

Jennie and Laura:
day.

Jan:
him your number.

Jennie and Laura:
And they texted me later and they said, I haven't cried like that in years. And whatever you did on my abdomen released something that needed to be released. And then said, cause that's sometimes not the most comfortable work. And it can be any way, you can be gentle and you can be in that particular case, I had to go a little bit deeper. And later. then said I want to do more work on my abdomen I want to continue to release and let go any and all that is stored in there so if there's a physical you can have a structural issue and it doesn't always have to be tied to an emotional issue but they very much at times coincide like I there's plenty of times I'll be working on a body and I can and again I have an attunement I have the gift of being able to have an attunement as a therapist and so I can

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
like an emotional muscle if you will, or an emotional kind of encumberment rather than just a physical one. But until sometimes I get the emotional release, and it doesn't always have to be this whole story, sometimes it's just like, hey, I want you to do five deep breaths and I'm tapping and I'm just going, I want you to imagine breathing in like calm and groundedness and I want you to breathe out any stress and any negative emotional breath that doesn't serve your body. So we don't even have to know specifically what it is. I'm asking them to breathe it out. And when I can feel the shift, then all of a sudden the muscle will. let go, whereas before the muscle was fighting me. So sometimes that emotional encumberment can keep a physical muscle from functioning properly. But once we get the emotional encumberment out, we can get the muscle back in alignment.

Jan:
See that to me is like the like the pot of gold. Like if the emotional can be solved and it also helps shift something physically in the body. It's like that has to be a trauma release. I mean it has to be something that is connected to all of those various systems that you know, your mind can drive you crazy. If you could be more like in your body present moment your life would be so much better. But it's so hard to do. And so to have just moments of healing where all of those kind of systems come together and then there's an actual shift in the physical body, I just think that would be, and I feel like that's what I experienced. Like somehow things shifted just in that one, you know, that one treatment that I was doing with you and your brother and friend, it was like, oh my gosh, this really like... I feel calmer. I feel more present in my body. I can't tell you exactly what happened, but it helped me become more present. Like when I start to get a little bit emotional or a little like worried about whatever it is, I'm just like, oh, but you can just breathe through that. And you can feel like the release is happening. And so I wanna keep doing it. I wanna do some more of that work.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
And so on the side of with MEND is I mean, all of this is part of MEND, right? These are all things that you're talking about. Like if somebody came into MEND and they were struggling with addiction or alcoholism, how would you say you start the process? Like they really want to be clean. They really wanna be sober. They really don't wanna do this anymore, but it is like the hardest thing in the world. Where do you start with somebody? What's the first thing? Does it just depend on that individual? And do you start talking to them about, you know, When did you start? How did this start? Or how do you start on a path like that with somebody that's maybe tried everything else?

Jennie and Laura:
someone who does a lot

Jan:
I don't

Jennie and Laura:
of

Jan:
know if that's

Jennie and Laura:
the

Jan:
a Lara

Jennie and Laura:
intake.

Jan:
or any question.

Jennie and Laura:
Well, I have an answer to that. Well, let Laura answer first. Well, I think it goes back to what I was saying in the beginning is that we meet people where they're at. Like you're coming in and we're holding a space. And I think when people feel that and there's no expectation, you're not supposed to come in and have all the answers and know what you need or how you got here. But you just come in and you're able to connect with people that were there and we wanna be a part of this process. part of the process. That in just naturally in my experience people will kind of lead you even if they can't you know if that first visit they can't like look you in the eyes and say this is where I want to start but

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
after that rapport is built the safer they feel through a conversation or maybe it's behaviors all of a sudden you're led to okay this is where we need to start. I will say a lot of

Jan:
Mm.

Jennie and Laura:
times and the clients that we've both worked with in the past getting people stabilized and feeling like they're capable of getting curious about how we got to this place. Why am I using or why do I have these addictions? Where did this stem from? We can't do that work until we're back in our body and there's some level of like stability, you know, and being fully present. And so I think that's where it initially starts. You have to feel safe. So building that rapport and

Jan:
That's a good

Jennie and Laura:
that's

Jan:
thing.

Jennie and Laura:
why it's not a one size fits all. it's got to start there. And then it's a collaborative effort. I think that's the biggest

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
thing with MEND is that we're really, we're working with our clients to go, okay, how does this feel? Or where, you know, are we on the right track? It's not our therapist agenda that, you know, we're kind of following and we're really letting the individuals help guide the process. One of the first questions

Jan:
Mm.

Jennie and Laura:
I ask isn't, okay, so tell me your life history. It's more, what made you decide to want to come see me today?

Jan:
Hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
answer that question, we'll get the rest of the story when and where we need to. And typically that very first question is like, well, and even if it's like, well, I just felt like something's off, or I can just tell I really needed some help, like tell me more about that. And then we can really devise like what kind of help they need first, like how, you know, how if we're going to do trauma work, then how do we establish, make sure that you can establish safety while you're doing the trauma work? Because I've worked with people that have done too much them, right? And then they also don't love therapy anymore, so I'm having to kind of help them be like, hey, therapy can be a healing place, not a place where you just have to do really hard work and then you're overwhelmed and then re-traumatized. It can be a place where we go at pace and tolerance. I'll say this too, even this is what's been interesting is if you were to play this video back and watch, there's an attunement that happens too and I love that I've learned how to do brain spotting because it's developed me as a therapist. I already was growing that attunement with being able to work with my patients. on bodies and also do the somatic unwinding. But when you watch people's eyes, right, and this is people who do EMDR too, and also any kind of modality that, that you know, you watch the eye field. When you started

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
talking initially, and as you remembered, you could see that there was a specific spot, and yours was kind of more off to this side, right? That you were, and then it came down here as you were talking about reclaiming your healing and telling your story.

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
There's information and data in those spots, and those would be the spots that we hold. That's brain spotting. And when Laura was talking about her

Jan:
Oh.

Jennie and Laura:
sister, and as she got emotional, I could feel her emotion building. And then I could see as I watched Laura where her spot would have been if she was to continue to hold that spot, if she continued to kind of connect with the emotion of losing her sister.

Jan:
Hmm

Jennie and Laura:
Not that she has a ton of unpacking left to do in regards to healing from that loss, but just acknowledging and validating the emotion. We could have done some brain spotting on that spot because the body is such an intuitive if you can attune, right, to people, you can make use of that information. And you help people pull those files and unwind. Whatever is doing this around some of those memories, where the nervous system may be feeling dysregulated, you can help slough that off and discharge just by attuning to where they're looking at connected to their emotional and mental body. So sometimes I don't even have to put hands on people, I just have to notice where they're looking and help them unwind.

Jan:
Wow, that's so interesting. And I can, I mean, I know when my son was telling me, Mom, I think what you're trying to do is you want to help people find their healing path. You're not trying to be their healer. You're just trying to help them find, you know, themselves in their healing path or to point them in a direction. And he said, what you need is you need to create a safe. This is exactly what he said. It has to be a safe place. where people are believed.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
That was kind of how he put it. And I was like, exactly, because that's what's like missing. You know, that piece is, you're always kind of, you know, with somebody you're talking to, you're checking to see, are they believing me? Do they, you know, it's creating safety that you're in a safe place. We're going to believe what you have to say, or on a bad day, we believe you, on a great day, we believe you. You are safe here to bring all your... different feelings, emotions, and to basically talk to each other. It's

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
like a peer-to-peer group, but that support of community where everybody is there for that same, and not because you have to talk about, you know, every day you don't have to talk about what happened in the past and how I'm trying to heal in the present. You can talk about pretty much anything as long as you keep it safe for all of those in your community. And so when you're talking about brain spotting, now that I look back on some of the people who have shared either their stories or have shared something like really troubling for that day, I can totally, like in my minds, I see they were looking in different places depending on what they were talking about.

Jennie and Laura:
they're pulling the file.

Jan:
That's what brain spotting is.

Jennie and Laura:
It is, and then you make use of that moment, right? You make use of that fixed spot, and you unwind until essentially the energy is clear. And what I love about brain spotting is if we lose window of tolerance, we just shift the gaze. We just pull back into the middle and we reground. And then we tune in, right? Hey, like that got really, you got flooded, let's reground, let's get back to feeling safe here in the present. And then sometimes we'll be able to say, okay, are we ready to go back in? Do you wanna go back there? No, I'm done for the day. or, okay, I have a little bit more room on my threshold, let's go back in and let's do a little bit more unwinding. It's so

Jan:
Mmm.

Jennie and Laura:
surgical, it can create so much safety in it. And I've had some people be like, I'm gonna keep brain spotting, I'm like, you will not, we're stopping right now, you've lost tolerance, we're done, like, no more. So that's the beauty of holding a space for people is helping them remember, like, no, we're gonna keep this safe, we're not gonna, there's no winning brain spotting, there's no winning trauma work, you will unwind and heal as much as you're able to. to when the body has no more tolerance.

Jan:
Hmm. Isn't that funny? We're such a society of people that have to win, have to be the best, have to be first. Everything's competition even with our own e-lean. It's so like, oh, I really like that idea. Like you don't have to win this race. There is no winning. It is just about unwinding and doing that as you are able and when you're done for that day, you're done for that day. And now you get to go, I don't know, go outside and take a walk or... you know, enjoy your favorite, you know, Ted Lasso episode or whatever. And I think that's part of it too. I think sometimes we get so caught up in the fact that there are some things that we wanna work on or that we're troubled about, but we forget that we also have all this other life around us and to enjoy those moments as well is part of the healing, right? I think that's hard for me actually sometimes to just enjoy that little moment and to be in that moment

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
fully. That's hard to do. Okay, any other thoughts before we kind of, you know, wrap up our conversation that something you wanted to touch on that I didn't ask the right question or that you've been going to say but hadn't had a chance? Is there some other piece of this that you want to bring forth to this audience who's very curious about somatic healing and what it actually means, what's the definition? I think they've gotten a lot out of this conversation and how do I do it? How do I find somebody maybe because most of our listeners are across the country? How do they find

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
somebody that's... that's qualified, you know, how do they find their own mend, the location when we only have this one, but we're gonna have many more hopefully in the future because this is the kind of healing I think people really need, that full spectrum where you start where they're at, what they want, and are ready to do. I love it,

Jennie and Laura:
people

Jan:
so

Jennie and Laura:
are getting

Jan:
what

Jennie and Laura:
more clear

Jan:
else?

Jennie and Laura:
about, yes, what they want and they don't want it to take years to feel better. They want, you can help someone feel better in like four to six sessions, they still may have some work to do, but if you can give them some really deep relief that's, you know, that was one of my biggest goals is I don't want you to need me very long. Like, cause I know that if I'm doing a good job with you, you're gonna tell your friends and family about me. So if I don't see you again, other than for a tune up here and there, I've done my job, right? And so

Jan:
Hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
some of the key words on to is, you know, a lot of therapy, I'm unique in that I can, I have a license in structural body work and also my license in mental health so I can put my hands on people and actually really do some of that somatic work but there's a lot of ways to do somatic work without having to put your hands on people so finding therapists that do somatic breath work that that's a way to do somatic unwinding. Therapists that can do brain spotting or EMDR or ART therapy or any kind of If they really understand how to do somatic unwinding, they'll be able to talk well about what it means to get in tune with the physical body along with the emotional mental body and help create relief. Right? Because you can, for example,

Jan:
So it's really those three systems is what you're talking about, mental body, emotional body, and

Jennie and Laura:
the physics.

Jan:
the body body,

Jennie and Laura:
Yep, and so it's helping

Jan:
the

Jennie and Laura:
people

Jan:
physical

Jennie and Laura:
get in

Jan:
body.

Jennie and Laura:
tune with, okay, so you're feeling, as we get in tune with that emotion, you're feeling some discomfort in your shoulder, like put your hand on your shoulder, let's bring some awareness to that area, so a therapist can hold

Jan:
Hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
a space to do some incredible somatic unwinding without ever having to put their hands on somebody. I'm just comfortable doing both because I have licenses in both, but that's what I would tell people to look for, is people who are comfortable with the somatic breathing, brain spotting, EMDR, and when they say, I can do somatic work, be specific, like how do you do that somatic trauma work? and ask them to be specific about, you know, when they do those initial consultations, like, well, here's how I hold a space for that. I will say that

Jan:
Okay.

Jennie and Laura:
some people that I've worked with that maybe that's not, they haven't been able to find that in their community. Even like trauma-informed, like yoga and things like that can be really just beneficial and again like connecting them to their physical body. And so, you know, obviously you've... we're trying to help you be your own healer because ultimately you are. Like you're not going, you are not going to let go of anything unless you want to. Like there's no magic way, Jenny can't like wave a magic wand and you're healed. It's like there is a level of effort that happens on everyone's part to be able to get you where you wanna be. And so just being

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
in tune to that and really, I mean that's our biggest goal is giving people back their power, you know, and helping them realize to heal themselves and to care for themselves. Yeah.

Jan:
I love the mindfulness part of what you were talking about too, Laura, earlier. It's just if you can be more mindful that you do have that ability or that you have a desire to heal and let go that is half the battle,

Jennie and Laura:
Mm-hmm.

Jan:
really. And so often I feel people have kind of given up, like because, you know, one trauma led to the next thing to... self-medicate or to cover that trauma up or to shove it to the side and then it just created another it's like all those pinballs being you know dropped into your into your body I just love that visual of it and the idea that you have to actually want it and you have to know it's possible there has to be that bit of you know I can heal myself I can put a period on my healing some

Jennie and Laura:
I can

Jan:
one of you

Jennie and Laura:
have

Jan:
said

Jennie and Laura:
a period

Jan:
that

Jennie and Laura:
in my past.

Jan:
was really

Jennie and Laura:
Instead of my nervous system doing

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
this all the time, that dysregulation, it can be, when I think of my past, it can have no activation. It can really have been healed. It's not that we forget what happened, but it doesn't have to have activation

Jan:
All right.

Jennie and Laura:
around it, dysregulation around it. It can be healed, and so then it just becomes a memory of something that happened without any

Jan:
Mm-hmm.

Jennie and Laura:
emotional and negative debris. It can just be something

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
that happened. And I think that the beautiful thing about your community to you can put a period on your past and then and then and so then people like well how and I think you do a beautiful job of helping people understand the how. Yeah.

Jan:
Yeah, well I hope so. That's really the reason that it's in existence because that is a lot of times people want to heal but they really don't know how or where to start. And I think for me personally, my healing began the first time I was ever asked to just come to a very small group as a book club and just tell my story. I had no books, I had no documentaries, I didn't have a series, I had none of that. I just, my little boy had just been born. He was just in the little carrier. And I was like, you really want me to come to your book club? I, oh, you know, what? And she said, well, you told me your story and I think our little, you know, group of performers, they were all, we were all performers at Disney World and we just, we want, I think it'll be helpful. And I was like, really? And that, for me, opened up that space of, oh. there is something here that they had questions about or that they learned something. And for me, that was really being able to help somebody know something. I didn't even know that I knew something that somebody else didn't know. Like I knew something about grooming or I knew something about safety that had been violated or that my parents were groomed as well. And people were like, oh, yeah, you always think about the kids being groomed or, you know, but it's not like that. It's not a scary stranger at a park. it's really truly somebody that you usually know. And those were things that I didn't realize would be such a helpful topic for people. And even back then, I mean, you know, this is when I was 27 years old, so this is more than 30 years ago, I was thinking to myself, oh, if people don't know this, I should tell people these things, you know? And not knowing where my life would go and my healing would go and what it would lead to. But that was kind of the genesis and the core of my own. realization that I have to be willing to heal. I have or I don't have to do anything. I get to choose to heal. And then at age 30 is really when I had, you know, one of those weekend experiences in a landmark forum that I did that I went, oh, I get to have all the power back. And my confidence came flooding back. And the whole thing was like, the blackboard has just been erased. I get to put whatever I want on it, no matter what happened to me in the past. It ain't controlling me right now at this minute or in the future as long as I put on the blackboard what I want and I can let that go. But until I had some of those experiences, I didn't know how to do that. I needed somebody to lead me through to that point, which happened in a variety of ways. That was just one that sort of opened that door to that freedom of, oh, I can heal. I can figure this out, you know, I'll go buy the next self-help book. I'll watch Oprah again today and take some notes or whatever I was doing. And now to have, you know, actual like this research that we are based upon, like you mentioned two books and I really suggest that if people are really interested in their healing, that one of those will speak volumes to them. And one was Vessel van der Kolk's book. The body keeps the score and the other one was the inner tiger?

Jennie and Laura:
It's called

Jan:
No.

Jennie and Laura:
Waking the Tiger with Peter Levine. And if people don't like reading, both Bessel and Peter have incredible videos on YouTube and they aren't too time intensive. I mean they have long ones but they have some 10-15 minute shorts that I think are really great.

Jan:
Yeah, I know, because some of them are, I mean, especially Bessel's book, I think is a little bit, you know, it's got a lot in it. And so you have to either listen to it and just kind of pull out those moments. Or I think that's a really good idea, just a short piece of some of those, because then you kind of go, okay, this kind of research and how it's developed, how psychology and neurology and all the things that we now are talking about. they've been being uncovered and developed for a long time. And now we really do have places and people and ways that we can take the reins in our own healing.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
And I think that journey is worth taking. And I don't think it necessarily, even though I can say, yes, I feel like I've, sorry about that. Oh, telegram is beeping.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
Somebody take this little part out of the beeps. I think that as we, as we are on the journey, that even though you can feel, you know, like it has a period after, you still need community and there will be things that will come up at another stage of life. So it is a journey and it is a process and I don't think you should feel bad for not having, like, oh, I have everything healed now and now why isn't my life perfect? Because that's just not how our human experience is, period. That's the period.

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
Just expect there to be other days, you know,

Jennie and Laura:
The

Jan:
where you don't feel

Jennie and Laura:
big

Jan:
so

Jennie and Laura:
comments

Jan:
perfect.

Jennie and Laura:
that hits, you can really do some unwinding. But yeah, there'll be these little kind of subsequent ones that, I mean, Laura will tell you even with her sister, there are days that feels more raw and harder, and other days where she feels really resolved around that. I think that is the evolution of healing. I think that is that we keep on packing and unwinding one and where we need to. Well, and I think healing is

Jan:
Yeah.

Jennie and Laura:
just our ability because I don't, I'm never going to not miss my sister, that's not going to happen. But my ability to be able to feel it and recognize, you know, the emotions that are coming up with it and better manage them, to me that's healing.

Jan:
Yes, that's the toolbox. That's where you've figured out how to have enough of those ways to get through that and to cope with that, that it's not controlling your life on some super, but you can have a day where that's all you do is miss your sister and you cry, you think about her, it's her birthday, whatever. I have those days with people that I loved that are not here anymore. Sometimes something so random will hit me and I'll just, ooh, here it comes, you know? I really appreciate this conversation. I feel like we've really covered some things that will be very, very interesting to our listeners and hopefully both of you feel encouraged to keep going because, you know, when you work in this field, sometimes it can get overwhelming just to know there's so much need. And if you're, like you said, if you're full, like, wow, we could. hardly take any more clients, you know, but yet you'll get more. They'll keep coming and people will feel better and they'll keep going and, you know, cycling, cycling through this whole process. But I really want to feel, um, like I've been able to express what you're doing and in such a way that people will search either you guys out because they're here, you know, in this region, in this community, or that they'll search something out for themselves so that they know that you're not alone. You know, there are people who really are standing for people's healing. They're they're doing great work. And both of you are in that category. And I really appreciate you being on the podcast today. Any final words?

Jennie and Laura:
We appreciate being here. This has been such an incredible opportunity. And our mission is to make sure that we always, I just, we are so dedicated to making sure that people have access to really good therapy. And so if there's room for more, we find more therapists that fit with what we're doing. And then we always have openings. We always want people to be able to find good help. So. Definitely.

Jan:
Yeah,

Jennie and Laura:
Thanks for having

Jan:
oh

Jennie and Laura:
us. Thank

Jan:
that's

Jennie and Laura:
you

Jan:
great. Okay,

Jennie and Laura:
so much. Yes.

Jan:
absolutely. So to find you guys, what would be the best way to find Mend and how to get in touch? Do you want to go ahead and tell our listeners?

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah, I think the easiest way is to just go to our website, mencounselingcenter.com, and from there, you can chat with us, you can email us, you can call us. We have some great information right there, too. But that's probably the easiest. And then you can obviously follow us on our social, Men Counseling Center, on Instagram, and Facebook. Facebook, yeah.

Jan:
Okay, MEND, counseling center.

Jennie and Laura:
Yep.

Jan:
Okay, all those words right there, and MEND is easy to spell, M-E-N-D, counseling center.

Jennie and Laura:
Yep.

Jan:
Okay, we will definitely put that in our notes as well, and thank you again for being here, Laura

Jennie and Laura:
Yeah.

Jan:
and Jenny. So appreciate you, and we will definitely see you on

Jennie and Laura:
That's

Jan:
the

Jennie and Laura:
not

Jan:
other

Jennie and Laura:
true,

Jan:
side

Jennie and Laura:
right?

Jan:
of trauma.

Jennie and Laura:
Thanks, Jen. Yep,

Jan:
Okay.

Jennie and Laura:
thank you. Take care.

Jan:
Thank you. We did it! That was so good!

Jennie and Laura:
Yay! Thank you! That was so wonderful. Thank you for having us, Jen.