Navigating Difficult Conversations With Claude L. King

Jan Broberg:
Today, I got to have a second conversation with one of my favorite guests, Claude L. King, who is a counselor and a dad, and talked a bit more about his own personal experiences. From our first conversation, we kind of ended where we talked about should we change the name of pedophiles or pedophilia to something more, you know, stomachable, I guess, like minor attraction. So we pick up in that conversation today a little bit more about the pros, the cons, the whys, the why nots. And I think that was a really interesting part of our conversation And what was so great is that we got all the way from young childhood and how to create a space where kids could actually ask questions into the teenage years. and talk about sex and how do you do it and what books are out there to help you so that you are the first teacher. Because if you don't teach your kids and tell your kids and talk to your kids, somebody else will. And then we got into a great discussion about racial trauma and how sexual trauma is affected by racial trauma. So it was a really layered conversation with Claude. And I think you're gonna love it. And I can't wait for you to hear. My conversation with Claude King.

Jan Broberg:
I am so excited to have Claude King back for a round two discussion. It was delightful having you here last time, Claude. We learned so much. Thank you for coming back.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yes, Jan, thank you for having me back. We had a great conversation the first time, and I'm excited to see where we go today with our

Jan Broberg:
Me

Claude L. King, LCPC:
topics.

Jan Broberg:
too.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yes.

Jan Broberg:
Yeah, I'm excited too. We had some really interesting topics come up and some people that have kind of weighed in and sent a few messages. Some were kind of like, what were you guys talking about when you were talking about changing the name from pedophile to minor attraction? And I've been completely against that until kind of our discussion and thought, well, you brought up something like people need help. Those people need help too. People that have... that if they know and they're not a hardened criminal, they want help, how do you do it? And so you were kind of telling me you were sort of not sure what you thought, but did bring up a different point of view on that. And so I thought, why not just start right there? Because I think we need to talk a little bit more about that so that our guests don't just go crazy. And Claude, King, in case you didn't hear our first episode a few weeks ago. He has been for 13 years, he's had experience in the mental health field. He is a licensed clinical professional counselor and an employee assistance consultant, which I thought was really interesting in our first conversation. I'd never heard of that, but it's where you're hired by a corporation and you're kind of an on-site counselor for on-the-job kind of counseling. And I thought that was really cool, that conversation around that. That really was informative. glad that there are companies that are doing this. I think it's amazing. I know we had a counselor on set when we were filming a friend of the family, because who knows what might happen in that situation when we're talking about real people and real stories and whoever else out of all those actors had their own traumatic experiences, you just don't know. So this is a great thing. But back to that last kind of almost our final conversation. in the last episode was should we change the name from pedophile, because there is some legislation that is moving this forward right now, to minor attraction instead of pedophile.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
And I just need a little bit more conversation around that so that people aren't losing their minds.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah, I would love to like dive deeper into that topic because I honestly can understand both sides of the conversation just with, you know, people who have been victimized of, who have experienced sexual abuse, have been on the victim side. I can definitely understand why they would be reluctant to change the title from pedophile to minor attraction. because it does seem like you're kind of normalizing it, making it seem like it's okay, that it's acceptable, and which of course it's not. The people that have victimized people sexually should be held responsible for their actions. And I don't, from my perspective, it wasn't making minor attraction acceptable. I'm most coming more from the perspective of changing. it from a title that is very stigmatizing to something else that will allow people to feel more comfortable seeking help out. And whether it's minor attraction or another title that they assign to it, I think the most important thing, just the underlying thing is these people really need help. if we can provide them with an opportunity to receive that help and allow for a little bit more empathy. There's a lot of times that people that are victimizing people sexually have been victims themselves and they did not get the services that they needed because of the shame around that or just feeling like they wouldn't be believed or whatever the case may be. And then they ended up enacting that abuse onto somebody else. be able to treat those individuals, we can really like help to like put it into sexual abuse or at least, you know, make a positive impact in that regard. I really just want those people to get the services that they need. So whether it's we're changing it to minor attraction or another term, you know, these people need help and they deserve to receive it.

Jan Broberg:
And that's such an interesting, you know, point of view, because I too have always said I want everybody to be healthy, and to have the help that they need. But when I first heard about that legislation, I was like, but that to me makes it sound so like, oh, it's just another, you know, just another, you know, little bit of an offbeat, you know, kinky, whatever, but you know, doesn't feel like it's there's any gravity in it to me. And I think that's why I've been so opposed to it. And yet, and you did say last time also, you did say that you've never had somebody that ever came to you, you know, as a counselor, you've never had anyone come to you and say, look, I'm, you know, I'm having this attraction to, you know, young people, to seven-year-olds or 13-year-olds or whatever, you know, even 17-year-olds and I'm 25 or I'm 30 or whatever. And I know that it's against the law, but I can't help myself. Help me,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
you've never had that happen.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-mm. No.

Jan Broberg:
So that is interesting. No one's ever sought out help, but it could be in part because of the amount of, it's like painting a target on somebody's back, and there is no. There is no pathway to help.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
Now I do know that there are some people that have had, you know, non-offending, at least so they say, non-offending pedophiles, and I tend to... believe that if they will come forward and they were to seek out help and counseling, that maybe, like you said, they were also perpetrated upon as children. The difference is you're talking about an adult and a young person.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
The adult person has to take responsibility for their actions, no matter what happened in childhood. So if you're a violent criminal because you were beaten as a child, That's a reason why maybe you've become violent and you are in need of lots of counseling and therapy and anger management. But if you become a hardened criminal where you're not going to stop, or you're a pedophile that has acted on this over and over and over again, and now you've offended and really seriously harmed the slew of young people, then what?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
Still, we want him to get help, right?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah,

Jan Broberg:
I guess.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
we do want them to get help. And again, they're not going to be excused or absolved of the crimes that they have committed of the people that they have hurt. They're still gonna be held responsible for that, but I still think they should receive treatment as well. And that's the reality of the situation. It's... a lot of people are not receiving help because of the stigmatizing nature of the word pedophile or Pedophilia and then they ended up victimizing multiple people they eventually get caught you know and they are in prison for it and I Don't know if they're really receiving help for it. You know and I know once they're released and they're categorized as a, I forgot what the term is, a sexual,

Jan Broberg:
some kind of a sex offender.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
sex offender, right, right. They're categorized as a sex offender. I even have a, it's very interesting. So through, I think one of the credit bureaus, I think it's Experian, you can sign up for some type of identity protection and other monitoring. And like I did it one time

Jan Broberg:
Hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
because I had somebody like steal some of my information and then like through that you get Alerts if there's a sex a sex offender that moves into your area And like i've always wondered so it's like, you know, I see all the sex offenders that are moving Within my neighborhood or like a block over and i've always wondered if you know, they actually receive treatment for it um, I don't really hear of people getting treatment for that specific issue, you know, necessarily. And I think it does make a difference, you know, for somebody that never received treatment for it. They serve time in jail and then they're like back in a neighborhood where they could potentially victimize somebody else versus somebody who actually received treatment for it. They feel like they understand where the impulses come from. they know how to control them and they could potentially be safe around children. So it's, I think, like I said before, like there needs to be treatment available for the people who have actually enacted the sexual abuse, who are criminals, who may have served some jail time. We have to treat those individuals as well, but they still have to be held responsible for what they've done. because I don't know if I mentioned this

Jan Broberg:
Right.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
when we initially spoke, but it's like, you're not responsible for the trauma that you experienced, but you're responsible for getting treatment for it. So it's very easy. A lot of people have experienced a lot of traumatic events in their life, and it has impacted the way that they move in society, and they have made some bad choices because of it. And especially when you become an adult and you gain some sense of awareness, you're responsible for getting help for it. You know, that's nobody's responsibility for yourself. You have to, you got to get the healing that you need.

Jan Broberg:
And that's an interesting, it's interesting because I agree with you 100%. Like you didn't choose to be abused, you know, raped or incest or any of those things that, you know, we talk about all the time on this particular podcast, just because we want people to understand how common these very life-changing events are for a child, a tween, a teen, a young adult, and how they carry over into our adult life. and how much they affect us. And many times we don't even know where to get the help or we can't afford treatment. It's very difficult because I think there's a real blind spot in society for one of those things that you can't see. You don't see

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
sexual abuse. You can see someone who's been physically abused sometimes. Sometimes it's hidden as well, but. But many times you can see there's a bruise, there's a black eye, there's a broken wrist, or there's something to see. But when you are sexually assaulted, most of the time you're hiding. You're not going to tell because you're scared and you've been threatened or a combination of things. You've been groomed. Maybe a thing I wanted to ask you about was in grooming. when you are dealing with a young person, and to me that's anybody 25 years old and younger, your brain is still developing from birth until that time. And sometimes they're even saying it could even be a few more years after 25 before it's fully formed. And so I think about having that abuse that happens. What does a teenager, because there's a lot of blind spots. for teenagers and tweens, because they're starting to come into their hormones, people often will blame the tween or the teen, when in reality, what happened is they were groomed. And I just think this, in this same way that a pedophile or someone who was abused, probably, has now developed this... condition who could potentially harm, you know, between 30 and 70 kids over the course of their lifetime. And you think about little kids, you can understand how that is 100% a crime, but people start to get really funny and judgmental when it's the tween years, the teenage years, the young adult years. Demi Lovato just came out with a song called 29 and it's talking about how she was groomed at 17

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
and he was 29. And he knew the numbers were wrong, but was it a teenage dream? Was it his or was it mine? And so these songs, these lyrics to this song really are describing grooming.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
How do you describe that? How do you, how, if you were, because you've done a lot of work with teens, and if you were giving a lecture, what would you tell them to look for? Because they're so impossible to sometimes communicate with and get them to listen to us.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
How do you do it?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah, growing is a very, I'm glad you brought up this subject because I've never really thought that in depth into it until you brought it up now and I'm thinking about it. Because it's like one of the things I was thinking about and you initially brought it up is like when is somebody emotionally mature enough to be able to consent to sex? And there's so many different Each state has its own age of consent. And I know in some states it's 18. I know in Illinois it's 17. I think it's 16 in some states. And I've talked to some women who have told me about sexual experiences that they had when they were in their later teens with older men. And... Some of them have a very interesting perspective on it and it's, some of them are very aware that there was some grooming, essentially they didn't necessarily use that word, but just like I was shown some special attention by this person, they were really nice to me, they were kind of going above and beyond for me, they would give me gifts or they would like pick me up. from school or whatever or give me money or whatever and then there was a relationship that developed because of that and then they naturally started to feel more comfortable with that person and they didn't feel that they were a victim of grooming at all though it felt very much so consensual for them they never felt they were forced to do anything they felt uncomfortable with and then you know other women definitely were able to acknowledge or for them at least it felt like this is not something I necessarily wanted to do but I felt like Obligated to or forced to or it had already

Jan Broberg:
Thanks for

Claude L. King, LCPC:
gotten

Jan Broberg:
watching!

Claude L. King, LCPC:
so far to the point Where I didn't even want to stop it because I was worried about how I would be perceived or the person Would be mad at me or they would start taking away some of the privileges that I was receiving By taking part in this relationship And I think, you know, it's a very interesting topic because, you know, for some people, it's seen definitely as an abuse of power and control, definitely feels like abuse. And then for other people,

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
it feels very consensual. And it's like, at what age do we define that? Like, how do we make like a definite marker of like, who like, as people develop and mature at different rates and stuff like that. So it's like, you know, for me, it's hard to be able to define that. And I'm a really big advocate of not, how can I put this in a way, not necessarily telling somebody they were traumatized if they didn't feel they were traumatized by something. You know what I mean?

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Sometimes I think we try to assign things to people. that doesn't reflect what their experience was. They don't view themselves as this, that, and the third. They don't view themselves as a victim or whatever. And it's just like, oh, this is something that I wanted to do or I didn't feel weird about this or I didn't feel like I was abused, you know? But based off of our own experiences, if we experience something similar and we felt like we were abused or taken advantage of, then we'll... Assign our own feelings and judgments onto that person and they might not feel that way at all but there does need to be I think some grounding in that because sometimes that individual Because of their lack of emotional maturity or awareness might not even understand What it is they experience so it's always like a very fine line that you have to play between giving people the information that they need and like speaking to certain experiences that they had so they can know what really happened and be able to put words to it, but then also not putting our own judgments or assigning labels to people that they necessarily don't feel or assigned to. So I know I said a whole bunch, but I'm hoping that makes sense.

Jan Broberg:
No, that's, it does make sense. And it's an interesting thought because a lot of times I think with older teens, where, you know, it's that very tricky and they feel tricked at the end of that, because they're

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
not, you know, a 16 or 17 year old is not a match emotionally or mentally. with a 24, 25 year old. They're just not. And yet as you get older, that gap, you know, when everybody becomes a fully formed adult, it feels like that gap gets smaller. So you could have a relationship with somebody 10 years younger or eight years younger than you, and it's not gonna be that different one way or the other, whether you're the older woman or you're the younger woman. And other people have relationships with people much younger than they are. And you know, I just think that somehow, like you're saying, you don't have to assign someone trauma if their life becomes unmanageable in some way and they are trying to understand like what is this emotional thing that keeps coming up or this why don't I function like other, you know, 21 year olds or 22 year olds. And you go back and you can look at that they're not functioning in that way because they lost out on some of that because somebody else took over their mind. They

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
took over their body. They took

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yep.

Jan Broberg:
over and they weren't a match for that. And so some people don't know that they were groomed.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right.

Jan Broberg:
And once they hear kind of the definition or whatever, then they go, Oh, well, that's what happened to me.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
And it did, it has affected me negatively. I am having, you know, X, Y, Z nightmares, or I can't hold a job, or I don't know how to have a trusting relationship. I can't even trust myself. I have no confidence, I'm cutting, I'm anorexic, whatever their thing might be. So because this is so nuanced, you have to draw a line somewhere.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
Is it that we should be teaching the definition of consent in a better way? Or are we in need of, I believe we're in need of a huge national campaign where we make the public aware and especially targeting, you know, 15 to 18, 19 year olds, what grooming is.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
Because so many times, when they actually are perpetrated upon, something really bad ends up happening and it becomes abusive. They get trafficked. they, it gets violent, it's, they don't have a voice anymore. I mean, obviously there's some things that are more obvious than others, but there needs to be a way for teenagers and young adults to see what grooming looks like.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely agree with that. And I think it does need to be more clearly defined. I think I'm really big on consent and that's something that, you know, during working with young children, even if they're not coming in for issues related to sexual abuse, but I noticed that they're starting to, you know, I would say like 11, 12 year old. 12 year olds and up starting to talk about sex or you know, especially the young boys relationships and I like this person and you know, they're dating and I asked them about Do you know about consent? You know and we have conversations around that and even if you start You know engaging into something and a person doesn't you know in the middle of it or whatever They don't want to engage in it anymore. That means you have to stop you know, people have the right to control what happens to them and hey, you have a right to have autonomy over their bodies. And I think those conversations need to be normalized. I don't think that it's something that is talked about in depth, you know, as much as this conversation around consent. I don't think I ever had a conversation about consent growing up. I never, nobody ever talked to me about it. My parents educated me on sex. And if they did talk about consent, it was a very brief thing, but nobody ever talked to me about that specifically. And I don't think a lot of young boys especially get that conversation. And so I think it definitely needs to be something that is definitely more clearly defined in the conversations around grooming and what that looks like so people can have the information. and be able to make a decision themselves

Jan Broberg:
Yeah.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
about what it is that they are experiencing. Like, oh, I remember learning about this in school. This is what this feels like for me. It doesn't feel right, and I couldn't put like language to it, but now that I have this terminology or language, now I can acknowledge like this is how I feel. So I think that, you know,

Jan Broberg:
Right.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
needs to be a conversation. But yes, I think it's this very interesting. just in general, just, you know, it doesn't seem like there's kind of a unified, I don't want to say stance, but perspective on it about, like the age of consent, like when is a person emotionally mature enough to be able to consent to what's happening to them? And it's, and it's like, you know, like I know, I know my grandparents, they got married very young, like 18, 19 years old. You know, and I know I've had clients that said that they were married, you know, generations back. They were like 18 or 19 and they married somebody who was their mid to late 20s. And like I've always been really interested to, you know, to hear their perspective of whether they thought that they were taking advantage of or groomed in a certain way or if this was something that, you know, felt consensual for them. So yeah, those are just my thoughts on that.

Jan Broberg:
Yeah, it would be really interesting to, again, these are the kinds of conversations that we don't have, which

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
is why we have this podcast, is to find people to talk about these sorts of things that just don't get talked about. Like, I don't know if there's a formal, formalized, national, you know, like, mandated program to teach young people, both boys and girls, about consent.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
Because half the time, You know, you have parents that are like, I don't want anybody talking about sex to my kids, but me.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right.

Jan Broberg:
Well, will you talk to them about it? Because

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right.

Jan Broberg:
a lot of times, people really don't get that at home. They might get a religious like teaching.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
You know, I got that. Like this is something very special, something very sacred. We wait till we're married,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
you know, to have sex. I mean, I knew that from my religious background and teachings, but you know, what about all the kids in my same church and neighborhood and whatever that aren't going to do that, you know, that aren't gonna wait? How do we help? We have to have conversations about it. It's like the big debate over, do you give kids condoms or do you teach them abstinence, you know?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right.

Jan Broberg:
And people just rage in opposite, you know, they're opposite, you know, what they think is the right or the wrong thing. But I just think information that

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
is so critical has to be taught to kids everywhere.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
I have a person that had no idea that what her grandfather was doing, from the earliest memories she ever had, maybe three or four years old, that it was even wrong until she was in a health class at 13.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Hmm.

Jan Broberg:
And... And then it was like, what do I do now?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Hmm.

Jan Broberg:
This has been happening for as far, as long as I can remember. And he's also the person that loves me and that does give me the gifts or the ride home from school or all those various things that you said.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
He was the one that paid attention to her. And so now the person that felt like the only person that loved her was She said I knew if something in me was uncomfortable that I didn't want that part, but the other part being loved and having

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
the attention and being special and you know grandpa's favorite that all felt good because I

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
didn't get any of that from Really my parents. So it's a really complex question. And when people want to just go, oh, we're gonna just you know I don't know, they say things that they of course never would do. Oh, I would have shot the guy. You know, I'm like, yeah, well then

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
you'd be in jail. That's not an answer to the problem.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I have so much to say about that. So one, yeah, I'm an advocate of giving people information, especially in this day of age, when we have access to anything that we wanna have access to, like kids have

Jan Broberg:
Yeah.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
smartphones and internet access on their own personal devices. You know, I've seen kids as young as five, six, seven years old with a smartphone. They have internet access.

Jan Broberg:
Yep.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
You know, they have tablets, you know, they're watching stuff on TV, you know, even like some of the kids YouTube shows Are not age appropriate or they might have like a secret video if they click on something and they get exposed to something that their parents might not want them to be exposed to and I think

Jan Broberg:
Oh, all the pornography that just pops up,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Absolutely,

Jan Broberg:
you know,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
absolutely

Jan Broberg:
just.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah. So

Jan Broberg:
I don't

Claude L. King, LCPC:
you

Jan Broberg:
think

Claude L. King, LCPC:
have to

Jan Broberg:
a

Claude L. King, LCPC:
give.

Jan Broberg:
seven-year-old needs to be exposed to that.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right. So kids need to have access to the information in an age appropriate way, of course. Like, you're not going to talk about it as explicitly as you would talk to a teen or an adult about it. But there's a lot of great books that I would use when I would do sexual education with children that were age appropriate, you know, for what they need to know at that time in their life. And as they. go get older, then you can start sharing more things. But I remember, I have a personal story with a client, and I don't know if I shared this, but he told me that he had two, him and his wife had multiple children, two of their children that had, his son and his daughter had some sexual interactions that were not appropriate. And they, I think the daughter had shared it with somebody at school or whatever. So then the parents had to go to therapy and the children had to go to trauma focused therapy to talk about their experiences and everything like that. So ideally the family could be brought back together, but they were separate. They were involved in the system for a period of time. And then so they had maybe like six or seven kids. These are their two youngest kids. And I was working with the dad and the dad had his own history of sexual trauma that he experienced from his mother and Because of he never got the healing that he needed He was so apprehensive and uncomfortable with talking about sex with his own children. He didn't even change his daughter's diapers when there were babies because he never wanted

Jan Broberg:
Mm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
to Touch them in a way or be accused of anything that will be deemed as sexual abuse. So he never even like changed. So that's how traumatized he was from this. So of course

Jan Broberg:
Wow.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
he never talked to his children about sex or anything and really

Jan Broberg:
Mm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
just like layered on the whole narrative of, you know, you should wait until you're married to have sex, abstinence, you know, really sheltered his kids, never, you know, they never exposed to any of these types of conversations. And then his oldest daughter got... Pregnant out of wedlock and he was really upset at his daughter. They grew up in a very religious household very upset at his daughter for doing that and Then she said something to him that I don't know why I always remember this but she's like well dad you it's your fault You never talked to me about sex. You never told us about sex. So like I didn't she pretty much was like I didn't know What was happening? I didn't know what I was doing like and And that's why I've always taken the stance that you have to give people the education, no matter how uncomfortable it's making you. You have to give your children the education so they can know what's happening. They can decide whether they want to participate in this or not. They'll know what consent is and what boundaries are and what good touches and bad touches are, what grooming looks like, so they can protect themselves. Because she felt... you know, taken advantage of by the guy that she has sex with because she didn't know about, you know, birth control and condoms and like how you actually get pregnant. You know, she was doing

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
something that she thought was enjoyable and then she ended up getting pregnant and she didn't know how that process even looked like. And she said it was because her parents never talked to her about sex. So like, you definitely have to give children the conversation, the education in an age appropriate way.

Jan Broberg:
Yeah, I think that's really remarkable, but I've heard a lot of stories like that. I've heard so many from people who mostly suffered through some kind of abuse, but they were really never taught. I didn't even know the name of what that was. I didn't know that that's how babies got made. I thought it happened by kissing or by... If you don't have information, then you make up your own story or somebody else makes it up for you. you know, that will take advantage of you. And so it really is, I think this is one of the main things that our foundation is trying to put together, like what are those legislative things that really need to happen? Because obviously if a child is being abused at home, which is the most common place that they are abused sexually, by the father first and the mother second. I mean, those are the two most common abusers of children, sexual abuse of children. And then it becomes friends or step-parents or siblings or cousins, but those are the most common. And so you think, well, are they gonna want their kids to find out? Well, those are, no, because then they're gonna be in trouble. So to me, you have to give information. And so any kind of public service that we could do to help mandate like on those social media feeds that every you know 30 minutes there has to be some kind of a hey this is what grooming is hey this is what consent is hey are you experiencing xyz call you know one two three

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
it's like we want to see this information come forward and sometimes you have to mandate it it's like every student has to take certain tests they have to not right so much anymore,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
but there are certain things that are still very much a part of just a basic education.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
And that education, if you don't have those basic things, you can be controlled and manipulated and harmed and abused for years and years and years by anyone. If you don't know that it is against the law to you know, beat your animal with a belt or your children. If you don't know that you can't do that, then you don't, and they don't know that you can't do that. Or maybe you can, maybe you still can. I don't even know the answer to my own question right there. How do you understand what's happening to you? How do you have any say or consent? You don't, right?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right.

Jan Broberg:
Without information.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right, absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
So you have children.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yes, three, we'll be three

Jan Broberg:
A child.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
in November. Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
Cute, cute age, innocent, you know, trying to do all the right things, right? If you fast forward in your mind because you've worked with 13-year-olds, let's go 10 years in the future. What would be the things that you would notice were different about any child, but your own child, so that people that might be listening, that would be red flags to you? And I don't really like the term because they're never obvious. It's more subtle than that. But if something were to shift or change, how would you know when to have the conversation about sex and consent? How would you know if something felt off? Like something's wrong. If you were advising a parent, what would you tell them about those two things?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Ooh, wow, that's a great

Jan Broberg:
When to

Claude L. King, LCPC:
question.

Jan Broberg:
have the conversation.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
and what to notice

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
if something might be wrong.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah. So first and foremost, Children are naturally curious about their bodies, especially as they're growing and developing. They're naturally curious about other people's bodies. And there have been situations where, you know, children will explore their own bodies and other children's bodies. And that's more coming from a curious standpoint. But again, going back to the conversation we had about education. And that's why it's important, I think, to give age appropriate conversation, you know, you know, at a, you know, not as soon as possible, but like when they start to get, you know, I would say like six, seven years old. Um, when a child receives the education that it's not okay to touch somebody's private area or, uh, topics about consent, you know, not doing something to somebody that they don't agree with, or they feel uncomfortable with. Once they have that information and they still are doing it anyway, that is a red flag because now they know better. They know what's right and what's wrong and their choosing to still do what's wrong, you know, especially at another person's detriment. That's a red flag to be aware of. Um, I would

Jan Broberg:
really

Claude L. King, LCPC:
say,

Jan Broberg:
good. And it's

Claude L. King, LCPC:
yeah.

Jan Broberg:
interesting because you can't until you define something, you can't,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
you can't expect them to know better, basically. And also to also point out that it's very normal and natural for them to explore their own bodies,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
to explore other bodies, you know, especially when they're in that innocent state of just curiosity. And so people shouldn't freak out about stuff like that either. because then they get all of a sudden their body shamed and they don't even know why.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
But all of a sudden that has taken away them being able to maybe freely express to you sensations that they feel or to just not to be shamed for the touching of their own bodies. I think that's

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
a very, very important concept that a lot of people don't think about. with your children or your grandchildren that some of that is very, very normal and natural.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Alright.

Jan Broberg:
And you're not going to give them a lesson about, you know, don't do these things that are normal, natural and part of their development. You wait until it's age appropriate. And I love that,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah,

Jan Broberg:
what you said.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
definitely, definitely. The other thing I would say is if, especially as, because I've noticed kids start really like talking about sex openly or being very curious about it as young as 10, 11 years old. You know, I have a lot of clients that I'll ask them, they'll, you know, admit to me that they watch porn and I ask them when did they start. and a lot of them, they're like 10, 11, 12 years old. They've been watching porn as young as those ages. So, and I think just also thinking back to your own childhood, when did you start thinking about like your sexual feelings and stuff like, I remember being like 11 and 12 and I'm like, I'm really interested in girls now. And like, I wanna date a girl or kiss a girl. If your kids are not having

Jan Broberg:
Thank you.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
those conversations with you or like asking you, at least asking questions. about, you know, I'm interested in this boy or I'm interested in this girl or I like them and having conversations about that type of stuff. Like they're not bringing it up at all. I think that is something to be mindful of. I won't say it's a red flag, but just something to be mindful of because I'm thinking my thought behind is that child probably does not feel comfortable talking to you about those type of topics because they're afraid. that you're not gonna be comfortable talking about it or you're just gonna shut it down and say like, well, you don't need to be thinking about that right now, you need to be focusing on school and sports and like worry about that at another time. And then if they're not feeling comfortable talking to their parents about it, then they're gonna like talk about it with their friends, they're gonna get that education or information somewhere else from the internet or porn sites. So like there needs to be open communication and dialogue about sex in your family. If you have a teenager and they have never brought the topic up, then I think that's something to be really mindful of as well.

Jan Broberg:
Yeah, that's a really good point. If they don't talk about certain things, there's a lack of either communication, comfort level, or something could be going on that they're afraid of getting in trouble for.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
And what you really want is to establish that open dialogue and communication with your children so that when there really is a problem, they will come to you. And you would notice the change in their behavior because they weren't talking to you. That would be one of those things. Like I was saying, what what would be something that would make you go, something's up, something's wrong. And it's that. I like that a lot. Nobody's ever really put it that way in the guests that I've had so far. So I think that's a really great point to pivot on because when we're talking about sex is always, to some degree, it always feels uncomfortable for a parent to talk to their young child about, unless the child is still super innocent and asks, like, my son when he was five. He asked me where babies came from, and I had been told just give them enough information to satisfy them, and he just kept asking questions. And

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
I remember we were sitting on a driveway waiting for somebody to pick us up, and I'm like, well, I guess I'll tell him about this too. And then he asked another question, and it was really interesting, but we hardly ever had another conversation about it as he got older, and I wanted to talk to him more.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
He was so like, mom, I don't wanna talk about this with you.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
And I'm like, okay, well. you need to talk about it then, you know, the next time you see your dad or whatever.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
These are things you got to talk about, but people are really uncomfortable. Is there any tips or advice you could give, you know, parents just to say, you know, get over being uncomfortable and this is how I would do that if we're not counselors and therapists and we don't

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
have all of your skill set.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah, I think I would just simply say that if you're not going to educate your child somebody else is, so if you want to have a healthy conversation about sex or you want your child to have a healthy picture or concept of what sex is, a healthy sexual relationship is supposed to look like. If you're not comfortable having that conversation. If whether it's due to a lack of knowledge, educate yourself on it. There's a lot of books. There's a lot of resources out there that can tell you how to have this conversation with your kid. Um, and it's okay to even acknowledge that with your child. Like I'm kind of uncomfortable having this conversation with you. And, um, but I want you to feel comfortable, you know, if you have questions about these topics, I want you to feel comfortable. Asking me, you know, I understand that you might be curious about some things now or in the future And if you are I want you to feel comfortable asking me, you know whatever you feel comfortable with asking me and if you're not comfortable with asking me then I would like for you to I know there's a lot of therapists that they can speak to as well and a lot of children do feel more comfortable speaking

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
to a therapist because they you know, like we're not gonna talk to my parents about it and there's some limits of confidentiality with that you know but you might feel more comfortable talking to a therapist about it and you can get some education from them or there I can give you this book that you can read on your own you know about sex sexual education and health and you can read that if you have questions for me you can ask me you know so but I would just simply say if you're not gonna have the conversation with your kids, somebody else is and preferably it needs to be a therapist. Cuz you don't want them to go into your friends or going on pornography sites and educating themselves on and developing a really unhealthy view of what sex looks like.

Jan Broberg:
Yeah, that's so good because I do believe that I do believe that the first teacher is the most powerful teacher. It's

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
like the first time you learn something I can remember some of those moments in my life where I learned something from someone one of my parents or a school teacher or a friend and that person that is your first teacher that tends to be the thing that sticks because it's a brand new you know the brain is flooded with brand new you know neurons and pathways when you learn something new. It's just a constantly building and rebuilding structure. And so it tends to be very powerful. I think another interesting thing is that trying to use the right terms and then making sure that your child or your tween, your teenager understands what that term means. Making sure you ask them to say it back to you. Because a lot of I think that people think they had the conversation, but if that young person on the other end doesn't understand what half the words are that you said, you didn't have a conversation. You had a lecture and half of it was not understood. And that's very different than having an understanding conversation with a young person. I remember a story where a mother talked about how she would get after her little, I think it was a three-year-old, two or three years old, very young, because they'd always break her hand and run. They'd run to the corner and step off of the curb. And then they'd stop, but she was so afraid that, oh my gosh, they're going to get hit by a car. That happened regularly. And she would say, don't, you can't run and you can't step. You can't step off of the curb. And this happened like 10 times. And she got more and more mad. Like I've told you this before, now she's grabbing their arm and now she's thinking, I think I'm gonna have to spank this child. And at one point when she, many times in having said this, the little person turned around with big tears in their eyes and they said, mommy, what's the curb?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mmm.

Jan Broberg:
They didn't know what the curb was. They didn't know that term. They didn't know the curb was the part that steps down and now your feet are on the street. And I have never forgotten that.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
I'm like, you have to make sure that they understand what the curb is

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
when you're talking to them about such important subjects that are gonna keep them safe. And I love that a lot, that having that conversation can be hard, but if you don't have it, somebody else will.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
And is that what you want? You want somebody else to teach them? Yeah, not so much. Okay, so we started to talk a little bit last time that we wanted to have a conversation. And I actually want to do this in a roundtable, I think, to go further with it. But we were talking about, you know, racial trauma and how depending on culturally in various cultures, have a different way of viewing sexual behavior. Sometimes it's cultural, you know? And I think that's an interesting thing. Do you find any connection between racial trauma and sexual deviancy or not even deviancy necessarily but just the way sex is viewed, just in

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah,

Jan Broberg:
general?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
yeah. That mean the first thing that pops up in my head being a black male and knowing the history of trauma that black people have suffered since coming into America, we have experienced a lot of trauma, a lot of abuse, and we haven't always been encouraged to speak up on it. There wasn't even opportunities or spaces for us to even talk about what we experienced. We just kind of internalized a lot of the trauma that we experienced. And we just kept it to ourselves and just focused on just surviving, being able to raise our family, providing those basic needs. food, water, shelter, clothes, and not really talking about how this has impacted us as a people. And when you think about

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
that mindset and you take it into issues related to sex and sexual abuse, if you've been taught not to talk about certain things that you've experienced and just internalize it and deal with it, you could be subjected to sexual abuse. You know, because if this happens to you, if you have been sexually abused, especially as a child, you're just not going to say anything about it because that has been the type of culture and environment that you've grown up in. That we don't talk about our pain, we don't talk about our struggles, we just... You know, a lot of our community, the Black community, we are very prideful and we like to be resilient and strong. And that's one of the things that

Jan Broberg:
Thanks

Claude L. King, LCPC:
we

Jan Broberg:
for watching!

Claude L. King, LCPC:
really value. And not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but that can come with some very serious implications. You know, at some point in time, you have to stop internalizing this pain and you have to speak up on it so you can actually heal from it. And when you think about the history of trauma that we've experienced, I think it

Jan Broberg:
Yeah.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
has led us to be very vulnerable, especially when it comes to sexual abuse, and not speaking up and getting the help that we need. So

Jan Broberg:
Right.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
yeah, that's what I wanna

Jan Broberg:
And

Claude L. King, LCPC:
say

Jan Broberg:
it's

Claude L. King, LCPC:
about

Jan Broberg:
not like

Claude L. King, LCPC:
that.

Jan Broberg:
it's, that's really good. And it's not exclusive to, you know, boys or girls. It happens to everybody, right? And that of course crosses all, all races and cultures and around the world. We know that sexual assault and abuse is just way too common in, in all of these ways. But if you, if you have that additional history of hiding your pain because you always have to appear strong and resilient, which is a wonderful thing too. Like you said, I often find myself talking so much about resilience and what does that really mean and how do we really get it? How do we have it? How do you build resilience? And you can, but if you don't have any history of being able to talk about those things because you haven't had a space to do that, you haven't had permission to do. those very things, very hard to heal from trauma of any kind. You know, if you don't at some point, talk about it. So that really makes a lot of sense to me. And I do want to have a further discussion about racial trauma when I have, you know, I have a better representation than just you and me sitting here, but we have, you know, some other people around the table and we're going to start doing some roundtables again for our podcast, which we used to do. we'd throw out a subject and have a great lively discussion. And I think this would be a really good one and very informative for people. Because a lot of times I think when we look at, you know, the extent of sexual abuse and sexual violence against children and young people, sometimes we look only at that and we don't look at everything else surrounding the fear, the pain, the... inability to speak or to talk. And I remember I had a friend that grew up in a military kind of family and I only had her as a friend for I think they moved after about a year of school, maybe a year and a half. I really liked her, but it was very obvious whenever I was at her house, like you don't talk about pain, you don't cry, you don't, no way. Everybody is very, you know. I'm okay, everything's fine. You're okay, everything's fine. And it was so different from my home where

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
maybe we were on the other extreme, like, oh, what's wrong? Oh no, what happened? But that was, for me at that time, it was like very extreme, like you can't have a feeling about anything.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
So very interesting how... what our surroundings are like, what our parents are like, what their background is that they come from and how that gets passed on to the next generation and the next and the next, and never dealing with pain or dealing with trauma can make people sick. It definitely

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Oh, absolutely.

Jan Broberg:
can.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
And that's why.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
I think about I

Jan Broberg:
You've

Claude L. King, LCPC:
even

Jan Broberg:
seen

Claude L. King, LCPC:
think

Jan Broberg:
that,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
about my own

Jan Broberg:
I'm

Claude L. King, LCPC:
family

Jan Broberg:
sure.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
with that, too, because, you know, I've heard of some of the stories that my grandfather would tell about some of the racism he experienced and my dad, you know, there was never any. I don't know, like conversations about how they overcame it necessarily. It was just like this is this is just what happened to me. And it's, you know, and then I could see my grandfather was a man who was very kind of quiet to himself, which you could tell that he was dealing with a lot. Internally, my dad is somewhat similar. He'll talk about the experiences that he had and how it impacted him, but he's very much a person that holds a lot of stuff into. And I became

Jan Broberg:
Hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
the same way. And as I became a therapist, I was able to... get the education that I needed and be able to put, I guess this terminology to like some of the experiences that I had that I wasn't able to define growing up and able to connect the dots. And I kind of like, I said, well, my grandfather was traumatized like for majority of his life. He's experienced a lot of racial trauma, growing up in the Jim Crow South, even when our family moved to Chicago. in the 50s, you know, and my dad too has experienced a lot of racial trauma. And, you know, I, I see how it's impacted them as men. Um, and I see how it's having an effect on me and how it's making me not feel comfortable talking about how I feel, how I have a tendency to suppress, you know, uncomfortable feelings or, you know, bad experiences that I've had, how it impacts. my relationships with other people. I just, growing up, I always felt very disconnected from people, as a result of that.

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
And I just had a really big lack of awareness because I never had an opportunity to process through my feelings with my parents and them to be able to give me the words to explain how I was feeling or how to deal with certain situations and help me not internalize all these negative self beliefs. that I developed about myself. And I had to do a lot of work later in my life to like help to reframe some of my negative beliefs about myself and develop healthier ways of coping with things because we did not have these conversations is

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
that was just not something that we did in my family. We were just, you know, my parents worked really hard. They worked very stressful jobs. They'd never really complained about anything. And you know, despite how stressful their lives were. And I just kind of embodied that too. Like this is like, this is what you're supposed to do. This is how you deal with things. And it wasn't until I got exposed to other families and other people later in life, I'm like, oh, everybody's family wasn't like that. Some people have very open dialogue in their family and they talked about everything, even really uncomfortable conversations. And I was like, I want that for my family. Now that I'm married and have a son, I want there to be open dialogue. And that's why. You know, I have conversations with my son who's two and a half. How was your day at school? He'll tell me like, so how did that make you feel? You know, I really am trying to get him to identify how he's feeling and feel comfortable having these conversations with us, because that's not something I got a lot of growing up, you know? So I appreciate you even acknowledging

Jan Broberg:
And it's

Claude L. King, LCPC:
that.

Jan Broberg:
interesting that, yeah, well, of course, and I do, I do believe that is the way to go. Because I, for whatever lucky reason had two parents who both were very, they were very good listeners, and they, and they asked us questions that were about our feelings, you know, it wasn't just yes and no questions. And because I didn't grow up with a lot of fear, really ever. I remember one time my dad being mad and kind of chased me down the downstairs hallway and I think it's the only time that I remember. I mean I knew if my dad was unhappy with me or if I did something that disappointed him or something like that but I was never afraid of my father you know and I just know a lot of kids who were really afraid of their one parent or the other like oh my mom was so strict or my dad or you know and I'm like how do you have open dialogue when you live in a constant state of fear? you know, that no matter what you do or say, you might be wrong and you might be in trouble and you might get, you know, some kind of a consequence that could be corporal punishment, or it could be just, you know, you don't get to eat dinner or whatever. I mean, I couldn't imagine any of that. I did not have any of those kinds of things, you know, as a kid. And that's what saved me in the end. It also probably made me more vulnerable, an easier target for a predator, you know, for the person that saw how open and loving and... how much conversation and it was easy, we were easy to talk to, we were open books in my family. So might've made us more of a target, maybe we could've balanced that with a little bit more awareness, but it definitely for me, saved me because I knew that I needed to talk once I was out of the fog of brainwashing and all of the, what I thought was real wasn't real. And then I could talk and I knew I could talk. I didn't talk a lot about it though. even then I was more like, oh, that was icky. And now it's over. And now let's go on and, you know, be in the choir and go do some plays and get straight A's. And I was more of that's how I kind of coped with my trauma. I kind of went on that, you know, that extrovert, you know, that side of things rather than the hiding and, and I'm glad I mean, that for me worked really, really well. But as my life went on, I talked to my parents about everything. And I could have conversations with my dad that I had other friends are like, how can you talk to your dad like that or about

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
that? And I'm like, why wouldn't I talk to my dad about that?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah.

Jan Broberg:
And he would listen. I mean, consider the 80s and talking about homosexuality and during the AIDS epidemic and... And all of these things that I could talk to my dad about those things, even though he had these long held beliefs, he would be like, wow, you're so smart about this.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mmm.

Jan Broberg:
I need to reconsider how I'm thinking or what,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mmm,

Jan Broberg:
you know,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
wow.

Jan Broberg:
really like conversations that back in that time

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right.

Jan Broberg:
were really hard. And as my whole life has progressed, I always did. So I think that's really cool that that's the kind of open dialogue that you're trying to create with your, your son, but it has to start with you. You went and figured out. I have to talk about things. I get to process my pain. I get to also realize that I experienced some trauma here that I need to look at and deal with. So it makes you really, it makes you the perfect kind of counselor because you have your own life experience and you also have all of the education. You have mentioned a few books that age appropriate books for about their

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm.

Jan Broberg:
body. And then you talked about teaching your kids about sex. There are some books or something online. sure if you Googled, how do I teach my fifth grader about sex?

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Right?

Jan Broberg:
You can probably find anything on the internet. But you have a few, just in closing here, this been such a great conversation, books that you really liked in either of those,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Mm-hmm

Jan Broberg:
when you mentioned books,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yeah, so one is called.

Jan Broberg:
to

Claude L. King, LCPC:
It's

Jan Broberg:
share with

Claude L. King, LCPC:
perfectly

Jan Broberg:
us.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
normal and It's a part of a series They do sexual education Books and it's based off of the age group. So I think they got one for like five to like eight or nine another phone from nine to twelve and so one of them is perfectly normal and it talks about how babies are created, it talks about consent, it talks about the body parts, what happens in puberty, like boundaries and consent and different sexual orientation. It talks about everything and it's like, it uses like cartoons, like it's kinda like a picture book but has like really great information as well geared towards the age of that child. So that's like something that I would always use. And it's more comfortable for the kids too, versus like you're just talking about the stuff to them directly. And it's like they can divert their attention to something else. Kind of like that whole thing is like, it's easier to have conversations with your kids in a car when they're not looking directly at you. You just kind of like have something else to like kind of fixate your attention on. So it's like, they can like

Jan Broberg:
Right.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
look at these things as you're explaining it to them. And it's like you. Or you could just simply read what's in the book, you know, and it seems more comfortable

Jan Broberg:
Mm-hmm.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
and safer for children. And so I've used that book a lot, it's perfectly normal. Another one that I would use specifically for people that have experienced some sort of sexual trauma or violation is Road Maps to Recovery. And that one is more of a workbook. And it talks about, you know, good touches, bad touches. It talks about consent. It helps to, what was the other, one of the concepts that they would talk about? I haven't used that book in a long time, so I can't remember all of it, but it pretty much, for somebody who's experienced sexual abuse, it takes you through kind of like a workbook of like all the things that you need to know to be able to like heal from the trauma that you have experienced. So I would recommend

Jan Broberg:
That's

Claude L. King, LCPC:
those

Jan Broberg:
cool.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
two

Jan Broberg:
What

Claude L. King, LCPC:
books.

Jan Broberg:
was it called again? One more time.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Road Maps to Recovery.

Jan Broberg:
Roadmaps to recovery. Okay, we'll try to remember and get those in our notes because sometimes people just need pointed in the right direction. And you've certainly done that today. This has been a great, another great conversation. And I hope you'll come back and join us when we do some of our other exciting things that we have planned or to bring people together, to have conversations on a specific subject. And I just think you're like... such a great guest and you're such a nice person. I just feel like you just kind of have that essence that just comes right through the computer. It's like comes right through the screen, your heart and the kindness that you bring to the conversation. And I really appreciate it. So thank you again for another wonderful conversation today, Claude.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
Yes,

Jan Broberg:
Thank you, Claude

Claude L. King, LCPC:
thank you

Jan Broberg:
King,

Claude L. King, LCPC:
again for

Jan Broberg:
my

Claude L. King, LCPC:
having

Jan Broberg:
guest.

Claude L. King, LCPC:
me, Jan. I really enjoyed it.

Jan Broberg:
Me too. Okay, I'm going to push stop.